beat list 1997

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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:32:27 -0400

Reply-To: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Watts

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There is a new book out called "Zen and the Beat Way" it's based on

selections from Alan Watts radio talks and tape recordings adapted and

written by David Cellers and Mark Watts published by Tuttle. Ironically

they spelled Kerouac as Karouac on the back cover. That's kind of a big

booboo. Phil Chaput

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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 21:00:33 -0400

Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject: letter to the prof.

Dear Professor,

Thank you for the opportunity to complete your Political Anthropology

class. I am currently working on my Final Paper. I thought I might send you

a sample of it so that you could steer me away from major blunders and make

suggestions for changes, and perhaps even tell me to scrap the whole thing

and start over.

I worry that it is too broad, and that you would rather i analyze

specific Political/Anthropological "realities", instead of postulating

hypothetical situations in the style of William S. Burroughs.

The general theme of my paper is the exploration of how meaning is

constructed and given limits. How we are trained to follow certain thought

paths and not others, unconsciously reproducing conventions of meaning.

These conventions are then called "reality". The Public Secret is that this

reality is constructed and random.

This idea can lead one to think of everything as absurd, and one loses

the will and ability to survive, because all meaning in one's life is

deconstructed. That is why it is necessary for it to remain a Secret if the

present social order is to endure.

When one refuses to accept these limited meanings as Truth, one has to

construct one's own. There are infinite possibilities for meaning, and one

has to remember that one's own are just as constructed as anyone else's.

This refusal to think in a conventional way is a threat to the present

dominant social order. Paradoxically, creative thought has been the human

species' strategy for survival since the very beginning. Perhaps the West

would do well to begin with accepting this paradox as a basic fact of life.

However, one can reproduce one's thought-connections in others (Why

would you want to do this? Well, it would show people other ways of thinking

and this is something we are desperately in need of). This is accomplished

thanks to the human faculty of Mimesis. Through the reading of words on a

page, connections are made in the reader's mind between the images described.

Knowledge can be transmitted this way.

Perceived meaning determines what we do and how we are. Different ways

of being can be explored by creating new and unconventional connections

between things/words/ideas/sensory perceptions. Writing them down allows

them to be transmitted. The new connections will resound in one way or

another in the reader's mind. If the writer is successful, the reader's

conscience will be somewhat altered.

It's nothing you haven't already said in (title of his book), as you

can see. But if what I have said so far is theory, then my paper is an

attempt to put it into practice. Using texts we read in class and other

sources, I will explore how conventional thought-control (AKA "culture")

limits us and how it can be transcended, and how the limits of what we can

become can be expanded.

If I am correct in my assumptions, you do not want to have to read 10

pages of text that is like this letter has been so far. You don't need me to

repeat what you have already said in class, either. Perhaps you will say,

"You have missed my point entirely; you've got it all backwards and upside

down and inside out". Please let me know if I am on the right track with

this page on (subject of my paper) which I am enclosing. I am planning on

writing several thematically related chapters; is this format acceptable to

you? I hope to incorporate the structure & collapse of several ancient

kingdoms of Central America (Mostly Maya & Aztec) into my paper (since I

studied that in college, after all).

My address is:

My phone #:

Again, thanks for everything; the readings in your class, esp. (The tiltle of

his book), have helped me enormously in making sense of the Absurd Chaos of

it all....

For instance, it showed me that writing can convey and create meaning and

thought (knowledge) after all, and it doesn't have to be only empty,

senseless words disguised as academia. Obviously, I have a long way to go...

but at least I have recovered the will to go somewhere.

My deepest respects to you,

------------maya

gorton

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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 18:19:30 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

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From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Philip Lamantia

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Dear Experts, scholars and bookstore people, lurkers or not

I find my mind returning periodically to Lamantia. Does anyone know

what the current state of Lamantia scholarship is? Is there any sort of

critical or biographical work? What is in print? My collection is

limited to the City Lights Pocket Poets #20--Selected Poems,(1943-1966)

and "A Touch of the Marvelous" which Four Seasons put out in '74.

Who would be good primary sources to contact? Is he still alive? Don't

remember. I remember meeting him in North Beach around '69. My friend

Vale ran the building on Kearney where they both lived.

Any help would be appreciated. I will e-mail Vale who always knew

everybody in North Beach and will share information.

James

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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 22:46:01 -0700

Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?

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Attila Gyenis wrote:

> In a message dated 97-06-14 15:03:13 EDT, gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU (Timothy K.

> Gallaher) writes:

> << But, more seriously, and only peripherally beat related, if there is no

> meaning to life (I'm not saying there is or isn't), but assuming there isn't

> what is wrong with what the Nazis did or with what McVeigh was convicted of

> doing? >>

> When I say there is no meaning to life, what I mean is that there is no

> meaning beyond this life that you are living. That doen't mean that this

> life isn't important. It makes this life more important. I just don't think

> that there is a greater purpose (that after we're dead that there's a reward

> up in heaven, doing gods bidding etc).

> And it is because this is the only go around that what McVeigh did is so

> terrible, stupid and wrong. Under my belief structure, what McVeigh did was

> much more tragic because I don't think that the people who died have another

> chance (like in heaven or some other afterlife).

> The concept of heaven is like a safety net. It allows people to do a lot of

> stuff that they wouldn't normally do and allows them not to worry about the

> consequences. I think that if more people realized that there is no heaven or

> afterlife, they would understand that this life (that we are living right

> now) is sacred, and maybe do more to take take of it and treat it better.

> enjoy, Attila

OK, based solely on the premise that Timothy Gallagher started with,

"that there is no meaning to life," I cannot see how you can end up with

the rightness or wrongness of any act. When you say "there is no meaning

beyond this life that you are living. That doesn't mean this life isn't

important. It makes this life more important," you have changed the

situation and the original premise. When you say that life is important,

you are giving it meaning. You are saying you don't see a greater

purpose beyond life, which is the concept of afterlife, a heaven or a

hell. But if you believe human life to be sacred that is suggesting that

you give it a lot of meaning. That, in my mind, is totally different

from the the line we began with, "there is no meaning in life." To me

that suggests that there is no meaning anywhere, nothing is more

important than anything else, either in this life or beyond this life, if

there is such a thing. That implies to me that everything is senseless

and random. A tree falling in the woods is no different than bombing a

building. Both exist solely as something that might happen. No one has

control of anything whether that be human acts or acts of the universe.

Nothing has more or less value than anything else. When you begin

thinking that this life is important, you are giving it a purpose.

I also have trouble with the concept of heaven as a safety net that

allows people to do things without worrying about the consequences. The

concept of heaven is a theological one and cannot exist without a belief

in hell. Churchs that teach there is a heaven also teach that there is a

hell. Hence the concepts of good and evil. That is totally different

than transcending the human condition into another level of

consciousness, a timeless oneness with all things. I don't think the

idea of heaven implies that you have another chance, no matter what.

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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:18:27 -0700

Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: inspiration

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Mike & Barbara Wirtz wrote:

> > << Inspiration makes one poetic. >>

> > DC

> hmmm...I muse that inspiration makes one an artist...perhaps even

> semi-divine, but not necessarily a poet. Some inspiriation could use

> the elbow-grease of 99% perspiration before it becomes a great "work".

> Admittedly, some works of genius flow...but not all logorrhea is great

> art...and I wouldn't categorize much of it as poetry.

I think we agree on the word inspiration here as a type of spiritual

breath. And yes, I'm saying breath here and not dunghill. If you have

this breath, and are in touch with the source from whence it came, and

you are writing poetry, you can trust that the flow will be true, and

inspired. That's not to say that a poet does not need to acquire tools

from the study of other poets. That's not too say that every poem will

be great. God knows, the collected/complete works of most poets all

contain the work of a few off days. But, I also think that many times

revision is highly overrated. When words come to someone fast and

furious, so to speak, as many times when Ginsberg or Kerouac stayed up

writing day and night, I think that is an inspired flow, and better left

unrevised. Students are too often taught that perspiration will make

their work great. That every revision is an improvement. You can revise

the hell out of something but if the breath of inspiration wasn't there

to begin with, it won't improve it. There are times when you must trust

your own poetic vision.

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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:45:11 -0700

Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: lurker speaks

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Mike & Barbara Wirtz wrote:

> DC,

> Quoting Alexander Pope: "True ease in writing comes from art, not

> chance/ as those move easiest who have learned to dance"

> (Essay on Criticism) Let's see...you say that TS Eliot is not

> memorable?....off the top of my head: "April is the cruellest month/

> breeding lilacs out the dead land/ Mixing memory and desire/ stirring

> dull roots with spring rain/ Winter kept us warm/ Covering earth in

> forgetful snow/ Feeding little life to dried tubers" An astounding

> beginning..... I find myself using Eliot extensively when teaching 20th

> C lit..cross referencing during Fitzgerald, the lost generation, Miller,

> etc......and I've never really had occasion to cross reference to

> Ginsberg...I think that speaks volumes. I also tend to quote Eliot

> when speaking to people on the topic of despair/hopelessness...in real

> life situations.... (more later...kids are fighting...life)

> sorry about how I triedto post this earlier...it didn't work obviously

> (and I still don't have quite enough time to expound on my ideas of

> Pound and Eliot.....hopefully tonight I'll get more than ten minutes at

> a stretch)

> Barb

I would like to hear more about how you use Eliot when speaking to people

about despair/hopelessness in real life situations. I don't think the

fact that you don't cross-reference Ginsberg speaks volumes. I think it

means something is missing in your views of twentieth century poetry.

Are you implying that you teach twentieth century literature but do not

draw from the experience of beat writers? I am still interested in why

you think Eliot is more appropriate than Ginsberg. Is it simply that you

are a more of a traditionalist in your world and literary views?

Ginsberg freed poetic language from the boundaries imposed by earlier

poets, including Eliot. He took poetry to another level. Is there

something about that level that bothers you?

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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:51:19 -0700

Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?

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RACE --- wrote:

> I must say though that the meaning of life may best be experienced on a

> stoop watching a Kansas thunderstorm roll in. The soul of the universe

> opens up and weeps all over us here on the plains. and the point of

> life may be found at the tip of a lightning bolt.

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

That is the best description of the meaning of life that I have read in a

long time.

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Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:03:53 -0700

Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?

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Maya Gorton wrote:

> What do you mean by "meaning"? Not sure i understand completely. You oppose

> it to "randomness" and the absence of morality. But can't there be meaning

> in chaos and beyond the polarity of good and bad?

I think I equate meaning with purpose. There can be meaning in

randomness but not in chaos. If there is no meaning in life then your

"intrinisc Meaning common to humans" does not exist. I am saying that if

there is no meaning in life you cannot invent one. If there is no

meaning you are right, we can eat, sit, drool, rot away, and it doesn't

matter. I think what you are thinking of is what people mean when they

say there are searching for meaning in life. Like there is one gigantic

answer out there that one must find. I think that a no meaning in life

scenario implies that only is that answer not there but that meaning you

say people must invent is also not there. No meaning at all on any

level. Total chaos.

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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:10:27 -0400

Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Memory Babe

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While cleaning out a room, I came upon a stash of books. One of those

was Memory Babe, A Critical Biography of Jack Kerouac. Since there

have been some on this list that have said he will be discredited and

that it is not a good work, I thought it would be helpful to look at

least two of the comments from the jacket.

"It is by far the best of the many books published about Jack Kerouac's

life and work, accurately and clearly written, with a sure feeling for

Jack's own prose."

William S. Burroughs

Me, I will side with WSB. BTW, if anyone is in touch with Bill, Hal

Norse asked about him and his health. He also asked me to pass that

along. If you do and WSB replies, I told Hal I would mail it to him.

"This is the Kerouac I knew, his sufferings and his exultations, his

elusive charisma and his maddening moods. At last he has been treated

as the serious, searching soul he was. A great writer and a great

biographer have come together, and the result is a book that is

essential for anyone interested in the development of postwar American

Literature."

John Clellon Homes

I think these two men know what they are talking about. To think that

some biographer would attempt to write a biography about Jack Kerouac

without examining in detail Gerry's archives seems to me to be a joke.

Gerry told me that a better book will be written by the person who can

gain access to the notebooks of Jack, without restrictions by third

parties, and to his archives. He also said he hopes it happens as his

work is what it was for the times it came out.

It does not sound like to me the remarks of an ego driven man solely

interested in his own fame. He has moved on to other subjects.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

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Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:12:41 -0700

Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: lurker #254

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CVEditions@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 97-06-15 17:59:38 EDT, you write:

> << Inspiration makes one poetic. >>

> DC

> Read any inspirational poetry recently? I get books of it in the mail. I'd be

> glad to send you some. Most of them come from Arizona and Southern

> California. Lots of inspirational poets out there, too.

> Charles Plymell

Thanks anyway, I'll pass on that. I would like to know, however, how you

characterize your own poetry. Did any poets in particular influence you?

I decided to say influence instead of inspire. What do you see as the

most important things that have happened in poetry in America, from say

the forties till now? Just curious.

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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:18:27 -0400

Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Memory Babe II

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In the back of my book, I made this note:

pg 279 -- The coming together -- read again. It says:

... Even Jesus passed by. At that moment the whole universe was

present with Jack, and he was one with it.

For weeks he puzzled over the meaning of that vision.

Finally he decided it was the parable of man's life. Man passed from

the hell of darkness before birth into "the LIGHT of the earth, which,

for merely being LIGHT, is heaven." The development of a soul on earth

was merely the successive visions of an eye peeking out of the

darkness. Jack felt that in his trance after the dream of the Shrouded

Stranger he had glimpsed another world, a world men could see before

being given the "light of life." Each world was but a different sort of

dream, and in each we rearranged "the memories of other dreams, other

existences, like file cards."

There is more about the fisherman.

Read it yourself if you haven't.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:36:16 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: lurker speaks

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Diane Carter wrote:

. . . Is it simply that you

> are a more of a traditionalist in your world and literary views?

> Ginsberg freed poetic language from the boundaries imposed by earlier

> poets, including Eliot. He took poetry to another level. Is there

> something about that level that bothers you?

> DC

You seem to be falling for the myth of progress here. Is more recent

inspiration more legitimate somehow than an earlier inspiration? As an

earlier poster pointed out well Eliot's early poems were revolutionary

and meet a reception from the lit establishment not that different than

the reaction to Howl. Both were revolutionary poets in their times.

Forty some years later Howl isn't the newest wave either. I think

literary history is about change, not a progressive revolution. When I

go back and read Homer I don't regret the fact that he didn't have the

chance to reach Ginsberg's level of advancement.

J Stauffer

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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:04:22 -0400

Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: Hunter

Comments: To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

In-Reply-To: <199706170031.UAA18320@owl.INS.CWRU.Edu>

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On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Diane M. Homza wrote:

> Did he really say this? I was reading a column written by the "Minister of

> Culture," Michael Heaton, in the Cleveland Plain Dealer Friday Magazine

[snip]

yeah that's where i got it from too. my mother sent me the clip.

> since I have no clue who HST is to begin with, I couldn't judge...

it was a pretty accurate summation of the man's rantings...

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Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:54:00 -0700

Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: lurker speaks

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James Stauffer wrote:

> Diane Carter wrote:

> . . . Is it simply that you

> > are a more of a traditionalist in your world and literary views?

> > Ginsberg freed poetic language from the boundaries imposed by earlier

> > poets, including Eliot. He took poetry to another level. Is there

> > something about that level that bothers you?

> > DC

> You seem to be falling for the myth of progress here. Is more recent

> inspiration more legitimate somehow than an earlier inspiration? As an

> earlier poster pointed out well Eliot's early poems were revolutionary

> and meet a reception from the lit establishment not that different than

> the reaction to Howl. Both were revolutionary poets in their times.

> Forty some years later Howl isn't the newest wave either. I think

> literary history is about change, not a progressive revolution. When I

> go back and read Homer I don't regret the fact that he didn't have the

> chance to reach Ginsberg's level of advancement.

> J Stauffer

I am absolutely not saying that recent inspiration is more legitimate

than earlier inspiration. Every era has revolutionary poets/writers and

they are all equally important. I think I am just reacting to the

classist mindset that would dismiss beat literature as secondary to other

forms of twentieth century literature. I don't suggest we don't read

Homer or Shakespeare or Eliot, only that we recognize when the

consciousness of poetry is enlarged by a broader vision that builds on

the works of the past and moves both literature and language ahead.

Genius is genius no matter what time period. And as far as a progressive

revolution goes, the fact that you can read from Eliot on daytime radio

and you still cannot read from Howl suggests that Ginsberg's

contributions to literature are still misunderstood.

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Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 21:32:47 +0000

Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz <wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>

Subject: Re: inspiration

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qKioqKhIYXNzYW4gaSBTYWJiYWioqKioqKioqA0KDQpNciBBbWlhYmxlDQoJKmdyaW4qIEkg

d2FzIHJlZmVycmluZyB0byB0aGF0IHN0YXRlbWVudCB0aGF0IGdlbml1cyBpcyAxJSBpbnNw

aXJhdGlvbg0KYW5kIDk5JSBwZXJzcGlyYXRpb24uLi5JIHRoaW5rIGl0IHdhcyBFZGlzb24u

Li4uDQooYnVsYnMgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGdvaW5nIG9mZikNCkJhcmINCg==

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 21:55:14 -0700

Reply-To: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Re: Philip Lamantia

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 06:19 PM 6/16/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Dear Experts, scholars and bookstore people, lurkers or not

>I find my mind returning periodically to Lamantia. Does anyone know

>what the current state of Lamantia scholarship is? Is there any sort of

>critical or biographical work? What is in print? My collection is

>limited to the City Lights Pocket Poets #20--Selected Poems,(1943-1966)

>and "A Touch of the Marvelous" which Four Seasons put out in '74.

>Who would be good primary sources to contact? Is he still alive? Don't

>remember. I remember meeting him in North Beach around '69. My friend

>Vale ran the building on Kearney where they both lived.

>Any help would be appreciated. I will e-mail Vale who always knew

>everybody in North Beach and will share information.

>James

Dear James, June 16, 1997

Lamantia is still alive, having survived a bout with throat cancer

several years ago. (He was a big cigar smoker, wonder if that contributed?)

He is married to Nancy Peters, coowner of City Lights, though they always

lived separately. He used to live in the building on Filbert Street,

bordering on Harwood Alley, now Bob Kaufman Place (west side of Harwood).

Just up the first steep flight of stairs heading up to Coit Tower.

He is a great poet, much overlooked. Never heard of anyone doing

any serious book or article on him, though he used to publish in Franklin

Rosemont's surrealist magazine out of Chicago for a long time, and was

sometimes mentioned in other articles in that mag (I think it was called

ARSENAL).

You can probably leave messages for him at City Lights, but he has

been a reclusive for the past ten years or more. I'm not sure of the

current state of his health; he may be too sick to see visitors. Someone

who used to be very close to him is Chronicle columnist Stephen Schwartz,

who was once a Trotskyist surrealist when a group of Marxists (centered

around Lamantia) used to gather and argue every afternoon at the Savoy

Tivoli on Grant Street.

Neeli Cherkovski, Bukowski and Ferlinghetti's biographer, was

another great friend of Lamantia's, and learned the poetry trade at

Lamantia's feet (after publishing little mags with Buk in LA). Cherkovski

has a great chapter about Lamantia in his wonderful, sadly out of print book

WHITMAN'S WILD CHILDREN.

If you need Neeli's address and phone, email me privately.

P.S. Lamantia has a brand-new poetry collection out with City Lights.

Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 01:36:49 -0400

Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: inspiration

Comments: To: dcarter@together.net

In a message dated 97-06-16 23:19:09 EDT, you write:

<< When words come to someone fast and

furious, so to speak, as many times when Ginsberg or Kerouac stayed up

writing day and night, I think that is an inspired flow, and better left

unrevised. Students are too often taught that perspiration will make

their work great. That every revision is an improvement. You can revise

the hell out of something but if the breath of inspiration wasn't there

to begin with, it won't improve it. There are times when you must trust

your own poetic vision.

DC >>

while i agree i would have to say that the true test of whether something is

good or not is in whether you like it enough to keep it when you are

revising.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 22:47:38 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Philip Lamantia

Comments: To: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> At 06:19 PM 6/16/97 -0700, you wrote:

> >Dear Experts, scholars and bookstore people, lurkers or not

> >

> >I find my mind returning periodically to Lamantia. Does anyone know

> >what the current state of Lamantia scholarship is? Is there any sort of

> >critical or biographical work? What is in print? My collection is

> >limited to the City Lights Pocket Poets #20--Selected Poems,(1943-1966)

> >and "A Touch of the Marvelous" which Four Seasons put out in '74.

> >

> >Who would be good primary sources to contact? Is he still alive? Don't

> >remember. I remember meeting him in North Beach around '69. My friend

> >Vale ran the building on Kearney where they both lived.

> >

> >Any help would be appreciated. I will e-mail Vale who always knew

> >everybody in North Beach and will share information.

> >

> >James

> >

> Dear James, June 16, 1997

> Lamantia is still alive, having survived a bout with throat cancer

> several years ago. (He was a big cigar smoker, wonder if that contributed?)

> He is married to Nancy Peters, coowner of City Lights, though they always

> lived separately. He used to live in the building on Filbert Street,

> bordering on Harwood Alley, now Bob Kaufman Place (west side of Harwood).

> Just up the first steep flight of stairs heading up to Coit Tower.

> He is a great poet, much overlooked. Never heard of anyone doing

> any serious book or article on him, though he used to publish in Franklin

> Rosemont's surrealist magazine out of Chicago for a long time, and was

> sometimes mentioned in other articles in that mag (I think it was called

> ARSENAL).

> You can probably leave messages for him at City Lights, but he has

> been a reclusive for the past ten years or more. I'm not sure of the

> current state of his health; he may be too sick to see visitors. Someone

> who used to be very close to him is Chronicle columnist Stephen Schwartz,

> who was once a Trotskyist surrealist when a group of Marxists (centered

> around Lamantia) used to gather and argue every afternoon at the Savoy

> Tivoli on Grant Street.

> Neeli Cherkovski, Bukowski and Ferlinghetti's biographer, was

> another great friend of Lamantia's, and learned the poetry trade at

> Lamantia's feet (after publishing little mags with Buk in LA). Cherkovski

> has a great chapter about Lamantia in his wonderful, sadly out of print book

> WHITMAN'S WILD CHILDREN.

> If you need Neeli's address and phone, email me privately.

> P.S. Lamantia has a brand-new poetry collection out with City Lights.

> Best, Gerry Nicosia

Gerry,

Thanks for the fact filled note.

I am toying with the idea of writing something on Lamantia. Am also

working (very slowly) on a Lew Welch piece. Not sure what form it will

take. I would appreciate Nelli's snail and electronic addresses and

will try to track down the piece. I should be able to find out the

current state of PL's accessability from my old friend Vale Hamanaka who

worked at City Lights for years until starting his own ReSearch

publishing. As I mentioned Philip wa living upstairs from Vale on

Kearney when I met him

Thanks for the help

James

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:23:29 +0000

Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz <wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>

Subject: perplexed..

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> Just so you know....I am a bit confused following some of these

> responses. Since I've never participated in a service such as this, I

> have no idea if this is a unique problem or list problem in general.

> Anyhow....I must admit I'm not sure if a question is being directed my

> way. The subject heading will be re:lurker (something I had spewed out

> earlier) but since a number of people had chimed in during the interim,

> I have no idea if the last comment is directed at me since my name is at

> the heading or the prior comments from someone else.

> I am not ignoring any questions....but I don't think at times they are

> meant for me, despite the subject title. Damnit! I want clarity! I'm

> having an epiphany...or make that an apoplexy right now!

> Sooo...I am lurker#234 (whatever random thing I chose)...but call me

> Barb...(the Mike on the address has no interest in literature unless it

> comes in the form of a mountain bike magazine...or infrared systems)

> For lit., I'm the one. Thanks for listening.

> Barb

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 02:56:12 -0400

Reply-To: Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Insomniatic Musings #45

Race,

I was captivated by this whole Yahtzee flow. The synapses and connections

really crackled for me. Thanks for sharing it!

Also, being a big Seth fan myself I really liked the way that tied in with

Maya's bit about "creating our own realities'. Now I'm flirting with making

me own little voodoo doll meself!

Who do

the voodoo?

You do!

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 06:11:59 -0400

Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: my first night out as a poet/somewhat off list, but NOT really

In-Reply-To: <97Apr20.100705-0400_edt.585909-171+4871@skywalker.microtec.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

back from plattsberg, ny and workshop/reading weekend

it was wonderful! even tho almost no audience, there were approx 8 of us

there, we didnt read in order, one person began, then the next bridged into

reading either because of name, idea, feeling expressed. more

conversational and worked wonderfully a magic circle of proetry

conversation, and wonderful poets!

as usual i was the only woman in the place. that's more than ok with me,

but does lead me to wondering..

the workshop was wonderful and i got a powerful pome our of it. we were at

art gallery, and after preliminary 'get rid of the internal censor'

exercises, we wandered about and wrote pome from reaction to art. here are

my two (first is bit of a doozy, and really scary to read outloud as, per

usual, my heart soul and autobiographical reality came right out screaming

from the pages. also wrote of a woman huge, beautiful, blowsy, standing in

front of whirling merry go round. oh, btw, could not have been treated

more kindly by craig czury and workshop leader, our very own michael

czarnecki, beginning with falling asleep on the ferry and almost being

brought back to my side of river, crew could NOT wake me up, the poets came

onboard and smiled onto me in some mystical fashion, and there i lay saying

oh you must be michael, and off we went. plattsberg is bit of armpit town,

trying to get its act together with the arts and especially coffehouse

reading scene again. and GUESS WHAT!!!! i found a used bookstore

with huge collection of MAD MAGAZINES all in good shape. the published

poets (mike, craig) bartered their own poetry for books, including an

edition of kenner pound as well as the rest. i was able to relax totally

and go with the flow. night of reading we went out to club afterwards, and

it GUSHED RAIN the wettest i have been fully clothed, i think, since i was

thrown in swimming pool on dupont estate, where poets were getting married.

plethora of poets i love it. ok here are my pomes:

poetry workshop with michael czarnecki

6/14/97

plattsberg, ny

exercise in word association. the inital word "vibrant" given by michael

and then we went to town, then made two poems from any three associated

words in a row (wonderful exercise which i will use whenever blocked or

bored! (oh yeah, everyone else wrote straight list of their words. when i

finished min i noticed it made an "m" sideways) also with out realizing it,

i came back to beginning.

alive!

potent

portent

message

bottle

shattered

pavement

diamonds

gutter

glitter

superficial

dead

spring

rebirth

pain

awaken!

vibrant

alive!

aglow

love

pure

sullied

dead

lilacs

whitman

father

hatred

frightened

stifled

fled

alive!

again.

________________________

she fell to the pavement

her diamonds no protection

from guttersnipe life

when love has been sullied

it is dead

dont send me lilacs

__________________________

2 pomes while gazing at art:

6/14/97

workshop with michael czarnecki

plattsberg, ny

etching: in conclusion

artist: valerie patterson

In conclusion

you are twelve years dead,

mother

yet nightly you rise from your grave

every night,

mother

your face invades my dreams

wrinkled, corroded

by years of disappointment

for which you have always blamed me

there are no laugh lines

hidden in the creases

of your face

toothless old crone,

i still fear your bite

in conclusion, mother

each morning as i rise from my grave

you return to yours

marie countryman

@mc

6/14/97

workshop with michael czarnecki

plattsberg ny

painting: the carousel

artist: maureen McShane

carousel

Queen

of the carousel

with your mona lisa smile

eyelids closed in private ecstacy

standing

arms akimbo

with insolent grace

the horses dance for you alone

marie countryman

@mc

_______________

it was exhilerating to be treated as a POET in my own write

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:09:38 +0200

Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Beat generation/Cantico di Frate Sole/S.Francesco

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Cantico di Frate Sole by Francesco d'Assisi (4 october 1226)

Altissimu, onnipotente, bon Signore,

tue so' le laude, la gloria e l'honore et onne benedictione.

Ad te solo, Altissimo, se konfano,

et nullu homo ene dignu te mentovare.

5 Laudato sie, mi' Signore, cum tucte le tue creature,

spetialmente messor lo frate sole,

lo qual'e' iorno, et allumini noi per lui.

Et ellu e' bellu e radiante cum grande splendore:

de te, Altissimo, porta significatione.

10 Laudato si', mi' Signore, per sora luna e le stelle:

in celu l'ai formate clarite et pretiose et belle.

Laudato si', mi' Signore, per frate vento

et per aere et nubilo et sereno et onne tempo,

per lo quale a le tue creature dai sustentamento.

15 Laudato si', mi' Signore, per sor'aqua,

la quale e' multo utile et humile et pretiosa et casta.

Laudato si', mi' Signore, per frate focu,

per lo quale ennallumini la nocte:

ed ello e' bello et iocundo et robustoso et forte.

20 Laudato si', mi' Signore, per sora nostra matre terra,

la quale ne sustenta et governa,

et produce diversi fructi con coloriti flori et herba.

Laudato si', mi' Signore, per quelli ke perdonano per lo tuo

amore

et sostengo infirmitate et tribulatione.

25 Beati quelli ke 'l sosterranno in pace,

ka da te, Altissimo, sirano incoronati.

Laudato si', mi' Signore, per sora nostra morte corporale,

da la quale nullu homo vivente po' skappare:

guai a.cquelli ke morrano ne le peccata mortali;

30 beati quelli ke trovara' ne le tue sanctissime voluntati,

ka la morte secunda no 'l farra' male.

Laudate e benedicete mi' Signore et rengratiate

e serviateli cum grande humilitate.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:11:53 -0400

Reply-To: Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Subject: Eliot vs. Ginsberg (was Re: lurker speaks)

In-Reply-To: <33A64298.3B0D@together.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 12:54 AM 6/17/97 -0700, Diane Carter wrote:

>James Stauffer wrote:

>> You seem to be falling for the myth of progress here. Is more recent

>> inspiration more legitimate somehow than an earlier inspiration? As an

>> earlier poster pointed out well Eliot's early poems were revolutionary

>> and meet a reception from the lit establishment not that different than

>> the reaction to Howl. Both were revolutionary poets in their times.

>> Forty some years later Howl isn't the newest wave either. I think

>> literary history is about change, not a progressive revolution. When I

>> go back and read Homer I don't regret the fact that he didn't have the

>> chance to reach Ginsberg's level of advancement.

>> J Stauffer

>I am absolutely not saying that recent inspiration is more legitimate

>than earlier inspiration. Every era has revolutionary poets/writers and

>they are all equally important. I think I am just reacting to the

>classist mindset that would dismiss beat literature as secondary to other

>forms of twentieth century literature.

Diane--This reaction is exactly what prompted my post yesterday. And I

think it's what prompted James's post. (The remark about Homer is

excellent, and worth remembering.) I agree that your remarks are a

"reaction to a classist mindset": a reaction that (seems to me) diminishes

Eliot's work itself rather than going after those folks who would trash

Ginsberg (maybe in favor of Eliot) without reading beyond the first few

lines of *Howl*. We have all met those types of cultural guardians. I

have exhausted much bandwith on other literature lists with these folks.

For them, Eliot is a monument that poets like Ginsberg--and, by extension,

all of Allen's readers--would desecrate. I don't buy their conception of

how readers and writers make literary history. I think their view

fossilizes literature and culture, and does great disservice to the

substantive and energizing body of work produced by Eliot and Ginsberg.

>From my own biographical readings, I doubt that Eliot would have had any

desire, say, to hang out with Ginsberg in India and speak to enlightened

masters and feed monkeys from his hotel balcony. And those who aspire to

be cultural guardians of Eliot and High Modernism would shrink from the

possibilities that Allen--and many of his readers--embrace. But despite

their vastly different interests, both poets come together in my mind as

two of the most innovative and influential poets of the century.

>I don't suggest we don't read

>Homer or Shakespeare or Eliot, only that we recognize when the

>consciousness of poetry is enlarged by a broader vision that builds on

>the works of the past and moves both literature and language ahead.

For some readers (including me), Eliot says something similar to this in

his essay, "Tradition and the Individual Talent." The essay is broad

enough to include a conception of "individual talent" that would appall

those who would monumental-ize and fossil-ize Eliot. So what. Let those

particular readers stew. Remember Emerson, who reminds us that there is a

huge difference between "reading" and "creative reading."

>Genius is genius no matter what time period. And as far as a progressive

>revolution goes, the fact that you can read from Eliot on daytime radio

>and you still cannot read from Howl suggests that Ginsberg's

>contributions to literature are still misunderstood.

I agree. This issue, again, seems to revolve around, as you say it, a

"misunderstanding" of Eliot's and Ginsberg's work--not something inherent

in the works themselves.

Tony

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"Snakes look at you and nod at you and if you speak to a snake, a snake'll

speak to you. C-o-b-r-a. A cobra is as big as your left hand or your right

hand, and from there it's as big as your arm, the muscles, and the muscles

of your upper arm, and they may be four to six feet long. There's

different lengths of snakes, there's different types of snakes. How many,

God only knows. Our Lord Jesus Christ knows. If you saw him, he could

tell you. It's very rare that you see Our Lord Jesus Christ. Very, very rare

. . . . It's very rare that you see a snake."

--William "Fergie" Ferguson

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 08:32:55 -0500

Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: To those following Insomniatic Musings

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

B. Rhaesa

Shrink....this was typed in the same fit of attic poetry in the old

abandoned funeral home. It is really a tribute to Eduardo Ricaurte and

the help he provided me. Without Eduardo i=92d be gone i=92m certain. I=

our negotiations over disability he made me promise to write an

autobiography someday. perhaps this is something of a start. by the

way, I did give a copy of the Firewalk Collection along with many many

other writings to Eduardo so the =93not telling the shrink=94 part in his

case is obviously tongue-and-cheek. also most of the comments about

flies are accurate as well. I should confess that I have killed a fly

or two since this but no crickets that I can think of off hand. the

best thing about crickets is when they sing along when you=92re playing

the guitar outside... like leading nature=92s choir.

SHRINK

My shrink says that my mind is like a Ferrari engine in a Volkswagen

chassis. A Ferrari engine in a Volkswagen chassis. What a metaphor! I

thought. My shrink often talks in car metaphors. But I thought to

myself when he said the part about that Volkswagen that if it was a VW

van I think I=92d like to keep it the way it is. I didn=92t tell him thi=

of course because he might think I=92m a little crazy but I=92ve always h=

this thing about VW vans. I was into them even before I=92d heard the

word Farfegnugen.

But the thing is, I=92m an idiot when it comes to automotive repairs. I

don=92t even know how to fix the fuse on my left blinker that hasn=92t

worked since the day I got my car back from Jim=92s Autobody after $1200

worth of repairs for running into Jennifer=92s driveway curb.

I remember thinking all the times I=92d driven under the influence of

controlled substances and never hit anything. Driving through LA rush

hour traffic trying to catch a plane ... After a New Year=92s party with

every hallucinogen known to man, woman or beast .... and never hit

anything. And now that I=92m straight as an arrow, I run into Jennifer=92=

curb. But I digress.

I=92ve read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance several times and

intellectually I understand the importance of auto repair to a balanced,

healthy life -- but my technophobia takes over and I just avoid left

turns and hope that my friend -- a woman who knows about cars and lots

of other mechanical stuff -- will help me out with it.

I don=92t like to admit that I=92m helpless, but I really don=92t get tha=

auto repair stuff and I hear that VW van engines need a lot of repairs.=20

Numerous people upon hearing my fantasy about the VW Van have looked at

me like I was crazy and said you really have to know how to do your own

auto repair.

BUT

If I had a VW Van with a Ferrari engine -- it might work and the fuses

on the left blinker would be from a Ferrari too so they=92d work and I

could drive around in my White VW Van just like Andrea=92s at Heritage or

Kimberly=92s who I met once, or the two that used to sit side-by-side

along the highway with one for sale sign and an unreasonably cheap price

tag on the road to Lincoln Nebraska.

But I didn=92t tell my shrink that I liked the idea of the VW chassis. I

didn=92t think he=92d understand. He=92s a nice man, but he=92s a little

divorced from the real world. We were talking about music one day and

he asked me my favorite album. I said: =93Dylan, =91Blood on the Tracks.=

=92=94=20

He said: =93Who=92s Dylan?=94 I remember thinking that maybe we needed t=

switch places.

I mean this guy thought the best guitar player of all time was some

classical spanish guy and I doubt he=92d ever heard of Robert Johnson or

jimi Hendrix or Jimi Page. So how could he possibly understand that

some people might prefer a VW van to a Ferrari?

The thing you=92ve got to know about shrinks is that you really have to b=

careful how much you tell them. They really think they=92ve heard it all

-- But I=92d guess my shrink -- like most shrinks -- thinks that all flie=

look alike.

=93Flies, Oh they all look alike,=94 he=92d say.

But we know that=92s not true. For example - eye color. Have you ever

noticed how many different colored eyes flies have? I have. And I

wasn=92t on drugs. There are flies with fluorescent green eyes, flies

with blood red eyes, flies with black eyes and blue eyes. In fact fly

eye color is far more diverse than human eye color. So don=92t believe

the shrinks when they say that all flies look alike. =20

And if you watch a fly real closely -- don=92t swat it away, just watch i=

intently and don=92t send any threatening thoughts its way -- you=92ll fi=

that flies are fascinating creatures. =20

Now I must admit, and please don=92t tell the doctor, that I have on

occasion talked to flies. Not nearly as often as I=92ve talked to

crickets. But on occasion I=92ve talk to them. Now I couldn=92t say it =

was

a conversation but I did get the feeling that the fly understood that I

wasn=92t going to kill it that I believe that every fly has a right to

life. But I can=92t be sure it was a conversation because the flies don=92=

talk back like the crickets do.

BUT -- they do rub their back legs together and flutter their wings in

something that appears to be orgasmic activity. The crickets talk back

but they=92re pretty shy about their orgasms. But crickets have a right

to life too.

So, I hope you=92ll join me in starting a movement for nonviolence agains=

flies and crickets and all other creatures. And we=92ll all get together

in a VW Van with a Ferrari engine and we=92ll drive over to my shrink=92s

house and we=92ll put Dylan in the tape deck and introduce him to

reality. We=92ll play Ballad of a Thin Man and let the Shrink play the

part and walk around the Van while we mumble along with Dylan

=93something=92s happening here and you don=92t know what it is, do you, =

Mr.

Jones.=94 ...

and the crickets will chirp along with the lyrics and their voices are a

little better than Dylan=92s ....

and the flies with their many colored eyes will fly around happy that

flyswaters were banned during the old revolution.

[the talk of crickets in shrink takes me back to sitting on the porch

playing guitar at Randy Brown=92s. haven=92t spoken to him since he had =

car towed. wonder how his children are these days. I remember him

telling a story about kerouac teaching a high school class drunk once.=20

I told him many many many stories. at the Mill and at his house when I

was splitting time between there and Dan and Mary=92s place because my ca=

broke down so I couldn=92t get to the farmhouse in the country and the

fleas took over in a Pharoahic like plague when I was gone. ]

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:48:58 -0400

Reply-To: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Subject: Insomniatic Musings

Comments: To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

In-Reply-To: <33A69207.57A8@midusa.net>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Wow, RACE. That was so excellent, and I related to it so much, it feels

weird. How many of us on this list are in psychotherapy and on psychotropic

drugs? I know I am. How many of us are former (or current) substance

abusers? I love this list; I feel so at home.

I dated a guy who drove a white Volkswagen Vanagon once. He was

schizophrenic. Ended up breaking up with me cuz' he thought I was an agent

for the government. He wanted to take the motor out of the Volkswagen and

build a small aircraft. You seem MUCH saner, RACE, but your poem certainly

brought back memories for me.

And I certainly can relate to having a mind and soull that go 0-60 in 5

seconds trapped in living tissue that is more like a Ford Escort thatn a

Camaro.

*smile* Cheers. --Sara

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 10:47:23 -0400

Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?

Comments: To: GYENIS@aol.com

In a message dated 97-06-17 04:29:59 EDT, you write:

A again agree, but I do have this theory that you as a person can never

experience death and therefore live infinitely (as far as your consciousness

is concerned).

Right on!!

Personally, I would add that reincarnation is not the soul changing bodies,

but the sort of death and rebirth of the 'soul' during changes in life (which

changes all the time) within the same body.

Since we cannot conceive of the absence of consciousness, it's absence does

not exist...consciousness is eternal. Like you said.

-----------maya

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:26:57 -0400

Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: lurker speaks

Comments: To: dcarter@together.net

In a message dated 97-06-17 08:27:52 EDT, you write:

Ginsberg freed poetic language from the boundaries imposed by earlier

poets, including Eliot. He took poetry to another level. Is there

something about that level that bothers you?

DC >>

am not sure Eliot IMPOSED that many boundaries...probably broke more. He

introduced the idea of weird metaphors for artistic effect ("like a patient

etherized upon a table") and used other images (and forms) endlessly copied

by the beats. Yes, Ginsberg did create new criteria of what can be

considered poetry. Now you can say "Ass ass asshole" and it's poetic. Among

other things. Of course, I love him, bless his soul, and there are many

beautiful things he has written. But i guarantee he and the rest of the beats

would have been very different if it weren't for Eliot. And i'm not sure

that "other level" you speak of wouldn't have happened without him. I do,

however, think that Ginsberg should at least be mentioned in a class on 20th

century lit. So should William S Burroughs. And Kerouac. They have such

different styles, yet they all have influenced literature in a way. But I

would mention Eliot first, and if i had to chose between one or the other,

who has been more influential, I would choose Eliot. (so sue

me)----------maya