=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:49:37 -0400

Reply-To:     "P.A.Maher" <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "P.A.Maher" <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Some of the Dharma

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At 03:30 PM 7/21/97 EDT, you wrote:

>I think it's schedule for a September release date to be followed by the

>"Selected Letters v.2", although this pub date may have been pushed up.

>

It will be released on September 5th along with ON the Road 40th Anniversary

edition. It has 432 pages filled with various journal entries, letter

fragments, prayers, literary essays (nice one on Dostoyevsky), musings,

thoughts, dreams, poems, and every one in a typeset facsimile exactly as

Jack wrote them. The book will mark a significant addition to the Kerouac

canon and just plain makes compelling reading. Ignore Kircus Reviews

negative review on this book which is written by a feminist critic who is

less than fond of Kerouac's misogynistic turns i.e. "Pretty women make

graves. Fuck you all."

     Selected Letters II is now expected next fall because Ann Charters had

scholarly obligations to fulfill (editing a textbook or some stuff like that).

Read this Summer's Kerouac Quarterly for more info. . .40 pages for $2.95.

 

 Thanks, Paul of The Kerouac Quarterly.. . .

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 17:47:24 -0400

Reply-To:     Jcarsonm@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Murphy <Jcarsonm@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: What NEXT?

 

The subject WHAT NEXT is about discovery--we all have more than one ratty

copy of Ulysses  & Eliot & Proust & Gravity's Rainbow.  They'll always be

there.  It would be fun again to discover again Lonesome Traveler.  Try it.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:26:28 -0700

Reply-To:     Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Catch-ups

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Thanks for the catch-ups guys ... I've actually

been following for about 3 days.

 

I mainly came back on because I got the BEAT-L

shirt from Jeffrey Weinberg with that nice and

very generous letter, and I thought "how can I

go around wearing a BEAT-L shirt -- a *free*

BEAT-L shirt in fact -- if I'm not on BEAT-L?"

Thanks Jeffrey ...

 

And, to chime in on the threads ...

 

1) I just can't see that Kerouac was gay, though I've

heard this argument before.  Yes, he did apparently

have sex with Gore Vidal, collect blowjobs from Allen

Ginsberg, etc., but I believe this was all in the spirit

of openness to experience and all that.  After all,

he lived a pretty wild life -- he did a *lot* of

things.  But primarily he was interested in exploring

the depths of his personality through his writings,

and it would have been uncharacteristic of him to

have kept some secret attraction towards men out of

his written record.  This is a guy, I honestly

believe, who didn't keep secrets.  I think truthfulness

was as deep an artistic principle as any he had,

and his principles were everything to him.

 

2) Visions of Cody -- yeah, it's not the easiest

book to read.  I skimmed the tape parts.  I love

the first section, though.

 

------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

|                                                    |

|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|     (3 years old and still running)                |

|                                                    |

|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

|                                                    |

|                *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*  |

|                                                    |

|                  "It was my dream that screwed up" |

|                                    -- Jack Kerouac |

------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:49:42 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Women

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Sherri,

 

Now now, you make me sound like a Sensitive New Age Guy I don't think my

friends would recognize.  Just an old dinosaur who has learned to

survive the hysteria of current sexual politics by picking his words

carefully :)

 

Who was it, Stokely Carmichael? who when asked about the place of women

in the Black Power movement replied "On their backs."  Not an anwer that

would have shocked AG, JK or WSB I suspect, although given their

preferences AG and WSB wouldn't have found it all that helpful

 

James Stauffer

 

Sherri wrote: . . .

>

> all that being said, Bill & James, i would like to thank you both for what i

> infer to be an enlightened, progressive and caring attitude toward women.

> ciao,

> sherri

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:01:31 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Bay Area Beat-L Bash

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The first annual SF Bay Area Beat-L Bash will be held the evening of

August 2 at a secret location on the Peninsula. This is your opportunity

to find out of any of us are real. Interested partiers are encouraged to

backchannel me for particulars.  You might as well come because the rest

of you will probably have to endure our posts until Bill Gargan cuts us

off from communion (OK, I've been reading Ulysses).

 

Rave on

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:57:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>

Subject:      Re: What NEXT?

Comments: To: "Jcarsonm@AOL.COM" <Jcarsonm@AOL.COM>

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thinking maybe if we're going to do a reading list of sorts...why not some

 poetry too?  just an idea...tell me what you think,

ryan.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:25:45 -0700

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Re: What NEXT?

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Since everyone seems to be talking about Kerouac and his relationships

with women, how about _The Subterraneans_, and maybe Bukowski's _Women_

to go along with the theme?

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:48:04 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Good beginning

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> James Stauffer wrote:

> >

> > Benz and Diane,

> >

> > You guys make some good points about this book, but you also raise a

> > couple of issues that have been troubling me.

> >

> > I have trouble with AG as an explicator of this book (VOC) and really

> > of

> > Jack in general.  It seems to me that while he is often brilliantly

> > insightful about Jack, Allen also tries to rewrite Jack into sharing

> > his

> > own mythology and theology more than Jack perhaps did.  Ginsberg is

> > always a propagandist.  We get sort of a strange phenomenon going

> > here,

> > Jack trying to rewrite Neal as he would like him to be and then Allen

> > putting his spin onto the whole thing. This is a pretty natural

> > dynamic

> > among friends.  Most of us know better what our friends should do to

> > improve their lives better than we know what to do about our own.

> >

> > I tried for awhile to read VOC without first reading AG's

> introduction

> > so as to be able to see the book with my own eyes rather than

> > Ginsbergs.

> >

> > James Stauffer

I don't see Ginsberg's notes on VOC as rewriting Jack based on his own

agenda.  I actually thought his memories of the events and his

interpretation of the novel as a whole gave me more of a sense of what

was going on in terms of method, and that his knowledge of Jack as a

friend was what created that elucidation.  There were times when I might

not have seen the point in finishing VOC if it was not for his insistence

that a certain type of greatness resided within the work.  I don't see

what he wrote as having any sort of selfish motivation.  I think he was

truly disgusted with publishers that refused to publish the work because

it might not sell well.  The difficulty of technique makes it truly hard

to digest for anyone not interested in all aspects of Kerouac's

development as a writer.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:06:20 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Women

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> Sherri wrote:

>

> i think i must not have gotten my point across.

>

> i really don't think JK was sexist.

>

> i do believe that he had personal problems with women, and

> relationships in

> general, but i don't believe he held the notion that women should be

> seen and

> not heard, didn't have minds, shouldn't have careers, etc.,  which were

> the

> prevailing opinions i grew up with.

>

> my point was that i think that JK was aware and had at least given some

> consideration to the "woman question" as it stood in the 50's.  and

> that he

> realized that there was some unfairness for women.

Upon what do you base your statement about Kerouac giving consideration

to the woman question?  I have to agree with Bill and James here and

perhaps even more strongly assert that he never had any idea of what a

woman's mind or point of view might have been.  To put it as blatently as

he certainly did in VOC and OTR, he saw women as cunts.  He never talked

about a woman has being intelligent or independent, or ever even came

close to understanding a woman's mindset.  And despite the fact that

we are talking about the forties and fifties, there were certainly

independent and professional women to be found.  When he took a woman to

dinner or met one at a party, he certainly never had anything in mind

close to wanting to more from her than sex.  How many women did he invite

over to discuss his latest writing with?  He couldn't deal with a

husband/wife situation and he certainly couldn't deal with a

daughter/father relationship.  He was a great writer and the humanness he

so eloquently described applied to women as well as men, but I think he

was a sexist in every sense of the word.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:12:03 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: New thread

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> Bill Gargan wrote:

>

> "Some of the Dharma" is about to hit the bookstores.  How about making

> this our new thread?

 

 

Since it seems that "Some of the Dharma" is not going to be available

until September, why don't we have a Kerouac summer and next read

something in between VOC and the new book that might help to bridge the

gap between VOC and then.  Any suggestions as to which book would be best

for that kind of reading?

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:29:09 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      [Fwd: reading on August 22nd]

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

 

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Griffin requested that I pass this on to the list since he is currently

off list travelling.

 

s.a. griffin wrote:

 . . .

>

> listen, could you do me a favor, since I am no longer on the beatlist,

> could you post the following info for me?

>

> am producing/hosting a reading of beat poets at The Galaxa Studios 3707

> Sunset Blvd. in Silverlake area of Los Angeles, Friday August 22nd at 8pm.

> 6 bucks at the door.  The readers are :

>

> Philomene Long

> Jack Micheline

> Frank T. Rios

> Tony Scibella

> John Thomas

>

> they are all Venice Beats save for Jack who is of course out of New York

> and San Francisco.  A small coming together of west coast beat.

>

> hope that all is well.  when ya coming down?  my regards to all on the list...

>

> later

> xxxooo

> s.a.

 

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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:14:59 -0700

To: <stauffer@pacbell.net>

From: "s.a. griffin" <sagriffin@mindspring.com>

Subject: reading on August 22nd

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James, been outta town working in Salt Lake, back for a week or so.

 

Yeah, the big beat will be a lotta work, but could be rewarding to say the

least.  an education and a coming together. will talk more on that after I

get back from my second round in Salt Lake middle of August.

 

listen, could you do me a favor, since I am no longer on the beatlist,

could you post the following info for me?

 

am producing/hosting a reading of beat poets at The Galaxa Studios 3707

Sunset Blvd. in Silverlake area of Los Angeles, Friday August 22nd at 8pm.

6 bucks at the door.  The readers are :

 

Philomene Long

Jack Micheline

Frank T. Rios

Tony Scibella

John Thomas

 

they are all Venice Beats save for Jack who is of course out of New York

and San Francisco.  A small coming together of west coast beat.

 

hope that all is well.  when ya coming down?  my regards to all on the list...

 

later

xxxooo

s.a.

 

 

--------------8381DB32F57--

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:20:10 -0700

Reply-To:     dumo13@EROLS.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Chris Dumond <dumo13@EROLS.COM>

Subject:      Get your kicks on ????

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Hello,

 

Something funny has always bothered me, maybe it's because of my age...

but does anyone know the roads Neal and Jack took cross-country?  I'd be

exstactic beyond anyone's imaginations if someone could tell me.

 

Thanks,

Chris

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:30:58 -0700

Reply-To:     runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: reading on August 22nd]

In-Reply-To:  <33D42905.4581@pacbell.net>

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At 8:29 PM -0700 7/21/97, James Stauffer passed along from s.a.:

 

 

> > am producing/hosting a reading of beat poets at The Galaxa Studios 3707

> > Sunset Blvd. in Silverlake area of Los Angeles, Friday August 22nd at 8pm.

> > 6 bucks at the door.  The readers are :

 

I think I can make this.  cool.

 

Dogulas

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/

step aside, and let the man go thru

        ---->  let the man go thru

super bon-bon (soul coughing)

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:40:51 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Cody: the last 100 pages

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I did finish VOC and I have got to say the ending left me in total

dispair.  There is no doubt that by the time you have gotten to this part

of the work, that Cody has become largely a gigantic mythological figure,

and that this mythical giant is beaten down by America and fades into

total dispair for all that America is and all that Cody can never become.

I was totally depressed by the ending, in fact, given the darkness and

bleakness of the situation, I have no doubt as to Jack drank to block

his sense of sadness and despair.  The end contains such great despair,

it could even drive me to drink.

 

Here are some quotes that paint the picture:

 

pg. 321

"Cody stands, implacable, unforetold, expressionless, almost dull looking

and ridiculously serious, Cody Pomeray. showing me how he will die, and

how well he does and also not showing anything to anyone but just being

there, dead in the void."

 

pg. 327

"the dusk of the park, the benches, the sad walk, the gathering darkness,

the hollow shell of Cody haunting the gloom and these Mexican monuments

and fountains like the ones we saw in Chapultepee Park at the bottom of

the road--Cody is dead."

 

pg. 335

"Do I have a baby daughter somewhere?  I have not troubled to find

out..."

 

pg. 340

"I saw that in his wild life of car-stealing, girl-conning, poolhalling

and hustling he needed order and a certain amount of help.  He was very

youthful and severe, and I marveled at him--openly with myself I thought

of him as a heartbreaking new friend, in fact very beautiful to whom the

only thing I could ever be left to say would be, 'Ah but your beauty will

die and so will life and the world."

 

pg. 368

"I writing this book because we are all going to die--In the loneliness

of my life, my father dead, my brother dead, my mother faraway, my sister

and wife far away, nothing here but my own tragic hands that once were

guarded by a world, a sweet attention, that now are left to guide and

disappear their own way into the common dark of all our death, sleeping

in me raw bed, alone and stupid; with just this one pride and

consolation: my heart broke in the general despair and opened upwards

toward the Lord, I made a suplication in this dream."

 

pg. 373

"we all stumbled out into raggedy American realities from the dream of

jazz: all our truths are at night, are to be found in the night on land

or sea.  Pray for the safety of the mind; find a justification for

yourself in the past only; romanticize yourself into nights.  What is the

truth?  You can't communicate with any other being, forever.  Cody is so

lost in his private--being--If I were God I'd have the word, Cody is my

friend and he is doomed as I am doomed."

 

pg. 389

"I'm powerless in from of such lonliness and imprisoned despair..."

 

Pg. 397

"I stood on sandpiles with an open soul, I not only accept loss forever,

I am made of loss--I am made of Cody too..."

 

pg. 398

"Goodbye Cody--your lips in your moments of self-possessed knowledge and

new found responsible goodness are as silent, make at least a noise, and

mystify with sense in nature, like the light of an automobile reflecting

from the shinny silverpaint of a sidewalk tank this very instant, as

silent and all this, as a bird crossing the dawn in search of the

mountain cross and the sea beyond the city at the end of the land.

        Adios, you who watched the sun go down, at the rail, by my side,

smiling--

        Adios, King.

 

 

Strickly in the framework of this ending, what hope can we hold for

America or each other?  We are betrayed by America, betrayed by our own

mortality.  Within this sense of doom, what makes any action any better

than any other action?  Here despair has taken hold of the mind and there

can be nothing new or expectant about life, only the fact that we are

doomed to die, and doomed in trying to lead any sort of life in the light

of American decay.  For what can one hope?  The hero is no longer a hero.

 The hero is as doomed as the mind that created him.  Why not wallow as

Jack does, in this dispair.  Does anyone see even one positive thing in

the ending of this book?

 

And, btw, I now see the tape as an essential thing, for in it begins the

basic thread that the writer must then elaborate on and develop.  Even

though taken alone, it does not illuminate anything, it does give a

foundation from which the writer can take the words and further develop

them as Jack did in the chapters that followed--much like a jazz piece

that starts out rather basic and then is taken to greater places by those

that pick up the original notes.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 22:01:27 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Cody: the last 100 pages

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Diane,

 

Admittedly I haven't yet made the last 100 pages, but your argument

troubles me, as this book does.

 

Why is this America's fault?  This part misses me completely.  Writers

have been dealing with the inevitability of death since Homer and the

Biblical writers.  As long as man has been writing this has been at the

center of it.  Doesn't make it any easier to accept, but it's certainly

not Jack's discovery tho he sometimes seems to think so.

 

Modern life everywhere has been tough on heroes.  I suspect even Homer

thought it was better in the old days.  Again, not a new discovery by

JK.  I think that this is why the book strikes me as so damn

frustratingly naive.  How does America fail Cody? Are we to infer that

had Cody been in France or India or the USSR his fate would have been

much different.  Color me dense, but I just don't get it. This goes back

to the argument that Corso and Ginsberg make that America failed Jack so

he drank himself to death.  America fails us all.  All of our countries

fail us.  Life often seems a bad joke.  If we don't do our best to

hasten our deaths are we showing a lack of artistic senstivity or what?

 

James Stauffer

 

Diane Carter wrote:

 

 , , ,

>

> Strickly in the framework of this ending, what hope can we hold for

> America or each other?  We are betrayed by America, betrayed by our own

> mortality.  Within this sense of doom, what makes any action any better

> than any other action?  Here despair has taken hold of the mind and there

> can be nothing new or expectant about life, only the fact that we are

> doomed to die, and doomed in trying to lead any sort of life in the light

> of American decay.  For what can one hope?  The hero is no longer a hero.

>  The hero is as doomed as the mind that created him.  Why not wallow as

> Jack does, in this dispair.  Does anyone see even one positive thing in

> the ending of this book?

>

> And, btw, I now see the tape as an essential thing, for in it begins the

> basic thread that the writer must then elaborate on and develop.  Even

> though taken alone, it does not illuminate anything, it does give a

> foundation from which the writer can take the words and further develop

> them as Jack did in the chapters that followed--much like a jazz piece

> that starts out rather basic and then is taken to greater places by those

> that pick up the original notes.

> DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 06:17:58 -0700

Reply-To:     James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      Re: Cody: the last 100 pages

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

(snipped)

>How does America fail Cody? Are we to infer that had

>Cody been in France or India or the USSR his fate would have been

>much different.  Color me dense, but I just don't get it. This goes back

>to the argument that Corso and Ginsberg make that America failed Jack so

>he drank himself to death.  America fails us all.  All of our countries

>fail us.  Life often seems a bad joke.  If we don't do our best to

>hasten our deaths are we showing a lack of artistic senstivity or what?

>

>James Stauffer

 

James,

  I don't think that Kerouac was arguing that the country of America had

failed him or Cody literally (I haven't read the book under discussion but

I've gotten a similar sense from some of his other books), more that the

"American Dream" had failed them.  "Life"-  sorry, you can only borrow it.

"Liberty"- well, here's a taste but hurry, the cops are coming.  "The

pursuit of happiness"- we didn't word that right, actually it's more like

"The flight from misery".  A country can't fail you but your hopes for a

country can disappoint the hell outta you.  The ideals which your country

claims to espouse and the things, like life itself, which you take for

granted often backslap you once you're old enough to realize it.  I don't

think that this is a display of naivety, rather a sign that coming of age is

a lifelong process.

 

                                                    James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:51:59 -0500

Reply-To:     LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>

Subject:      Second Beat #4

Comments: To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Having met with sucess (increasing everyday) in the distribution of Second

Beat #3 (the Allen Ginsberg Memorial, I'm sure you'll all remember, which

is still available-a very limited supply of first printings before we go

into reprints-for a buck) we have moved on to our fourth issue-the

religious persecution issue. Having received two letters from my "religious

nutso" deacon-uncle in Texas challenging our faith, we decided to rebut

with an entire issue of our mag devoted to him. The letter iss as follows

below. We would appreciate any comments in defense of ours and the Beat's

generation subject for print in said issue.

 

Thanks,

Thadeus D'Angelo, Camellia City Books

 

Thursday, April 10, 1997

 

 

Thadeus D'Angelo (Spittle)

C/O Matt Doman

2034 Johnston Station Road.

Summit, MS 39666

 

Dear Thad,

 

This is Unc, bud!  I'd like to introduce you to someone who I believe would

be a better mentor to you than Demonic.  I understand that ol' Demo is a

college boy but it appears that this friend of mine, a mere H.S. Senior,

has a clearer perspective on life than he.  Now go easy on him as he has

only been acknowledged as a gifted poet by his peers and the International

Society Of Poet and has only been to Washington D.C. once to receive a

dubious "Poet of Merit Award" being in the top 150 of 3000 poets.  I don't

know how often he can correspond with you since he is busy  legitimately

publishing his poetry and writing a childrens book for publication.

 

Hey Thad, this is Joey.  I'm a friend of John's and I just read your 2nd

Issue of Second Beat.  I tend to write a little poetry and the occasional

story or two myself.  Now, I'd like to present a challenge to you and

Demonic.  It seems to me I heard once that good ol' Thad claimed to be a

Christian, and thinking back, I do recall the very night that Jesus Christ

claimed your life.  Now, something here seems a little screwy, jaded,

turned about, if you will.

 

  So therefore, bretheren, I do now begin to communicate

  Quite clearly, I think, though the hour is late.

  I boldly challenge thee to think, to ponder,

  To seriously commit yourselves to wonder

Of all that I and my Friend of Three

  Do so solemnly write to thee.

 

  We want to stretch your thinkers far

  And test the thoughts of who you are

  And who you claim to be

  You see it's all the same to me.

 

  I see in you a certainty(?),

  A confidence in what you see

  Or perhaps in what you profess to be

  I guess that's what it seems to me.

  It's Truth you want and so diligently search

  <hint> Think back to the Word you heard in Church.

 

  I want thus to communicate with you two,

  Or one on one if this suits you

  To give you Spiritual food to devour

  And thus decide in your hearts this hour.

 

  So it's Demo and Thad searching for the Truth

  With me, My Three providing the Proof.

  Now the challenge is thus:

  We write to you, you write to Us.  ~~~~Joey

 

Hey Thad, Unc again.  I trust you won't be intimidated and not respond.

Although I must tell you that most of the Demo's I have met, when they are

confronted with the Truth, they flee.  I don't expect that you would print

any of your dialog with Joey in Second Beat, that would be too enlightening

to your readers and might increase reader interest.  What do you say Thad,

Demo?  Please continue to send me copies off Second Beat so that I can keep

up with your dialog with Joey.  By the way I was hardly shocked at the

language in Second Beat since I may have heard one or two somewhere in my

past.  Be careful though that it may replace

 

english as your primary language. We'll call it Beat-bonics!

 

Cheers,

Unc and Joey

 

Please submit all response to:

 

                        Mr. Joey Hensley

                        1705 Cougar Creek

                        Conroe, Texas 77385

 

 

 

that's the letter as it appeared to us. Give us your comments via e-mail at

<2ndbeat@telapex.com>

 

thanks again,

Thadeus

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:20:44 EDT

Reply-To:     Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      VofC

 

Diane is right in her analysis of VoC.  This sense of despair permeates

much of Kerouac's work, though it is something he strives to fight or

work out.  There's an attempt in OTR to salvage some happiness or find

redemption if you will through movement and speed.   There's an attempt

to recapture the supposed "ideals" of the pioneer and the frontiersman,

with the car replacing the wagon train and horse, and the goal

translated from space to time, from miles to miles per hour.In "Dharma

Bums" the search is turned inward.   The tension between despair and

hope in Kerouac's work is what keeps it interesting.  He remains a

"searcher" trying to make some kind of sense out of life as he sees it.

Buddhism and Catholicism are two systems he embraces hoping to find an

answer; drugs like LSD are another possible sources of enlightenment.

The point is he keeps on going with the protagonist in each novel

grappling in a different way with the same questions, the same despair.

I've never really made up my mind as to whether this movement from novel

to novel was spiral or circular.   Are we left in the end with the

gloomy Kerouac Diane quotes in VofC, the man who belived "the woods are

full of wardens" or the Kerouac of "Hix calix.  Here's the cup, make

sure there's wine in it."

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:01:02 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      Re: In regards

 

Reply to message from dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET of Mon, 21 Jul

>

>My friends in Beating, (sounds like a support group or something)

>  I'd like to take part in the next group reading but I've got a bit of a

>problem:  an inability to lay hands on the books that have been mentioned as

>candidates so far.  This inability kept me from participating in the

>_Visions of Cody_ project.  I'm currently reading WSB's _The Western Lands_

>(which a friend had to lend to me).  Could we add this one to the list of

>possibilities?  I wouldn't mind reading _Naked Lunch_ again either.  I think

>we could get a lot of mileage out of that one.

>  Or Kerouac:  _Visions of Gerard_, _The Subterraneans_, _The Dharma Bums_?

>I have a few other Kerouac works but the ones I've listed are the only ones

>I really have any interest in reading again presently.

>  Anyway, whatever you guys decide is cool.

>

>                                                   James M.

 

Currently I've just started reading Naked Lunch, & I must admitt...it has

me a bit boggled, but I do love his style (this is my first Burroughs work

I'm reading)...even if I'm not always sure what he's talkign about...and

the fact that he quotes Macbeth in one part rates highly with me me, since

I spent three weeks studying that play this past academic year for a

class...anyone who would like to offer emotional support and/or insight,

please do! :)

 

Diane. (H)

 

--

Life is weird.  Remember to brush your teeth.

--Heidi A. Emhoff

                                                  ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

                                                  Diane M. Homza

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:06:34 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      Re: What NEXT?

 

>>

>i would suggest One Flew Over the Cuckoo's nest because it is a short

>easy read and is just a great book. i geuss Ken KEsey would be a beat

>but i always thought he was right between the line of being a beatnik

>and a hippie. he still did write good. also, the main character in

>OFOTCN always did remind me somewhat of Neal cassady. questions,

>comments? Cya~randy

 

I think quite a nubmer of people thought that the main character _was_

fashioned after Neal, but Kesey hadn't met Cassady until after the novel

had already been written....

 

Diane. (H)

 

--

Life is weird.  Remember to brush your teeth.

--Heidi A. Emhoff

                                                  ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

                                                  Diane M. Homza

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:15:18 -0400

Reply-To:     Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Cody: the last 100 pages

In-Reply-To:  <33D43EA6.62E5@pacbell.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

 

> Why is this America's fault?

 

The thing we have to remember is to recognixe the America Kerouac is

dealing with.  America is one of the most unique places on Earth because

it has developed an incredibly mythological identity in a scant 200+

years.  America breeds myths like flies grow on shit.  We have systems

who's sole purpose is to create these myths and legends and are so

insanely effective not even those individuals involved recognize the power

they wield.  This is a place where performers reach the level of religious

icon, and with death they are propelled into our cultural conscience to

live there with Jesus for the rest of eternity.  Except even more so

because we know John Wayne and Elvis were real.

 

> Modern life everywhere has been tough on heroes.  I suspect even Homer

> thought it was better in the old days.  Again, not a new discovery by

> JK.  I think that this is why the book strikes me as so damn

> frustratingly naive.  How does America fail Cody? Are we to infer that

> had Cody been in France or India or the USSR his fate would have been

> much different.  Color me dense, but I just don't get it. This goes back

> to the argument that Corso and Ginsberg make that America failed Jack so

> he drank himself to death.  America fails us all.  All of our countries

> fail us.  Life often seems a bad joke.  If we don't do our best to

> hasten our deaths are we showing a lack of artistic senstivity or what?

>

America in big gold letters written in sunlight across Montana sky's is

the faith people have the most trouble rejecting.  Never in my life have I

read a religious text that could inspire me to life like say, _On The

Road_ or _Travels with Charley_.  Its this America that failed Jack

Kerouac.  It was this America he lost faith in and let the vital energy

Jack had that we all love whither and die.  Jack was an idealist in this

respect.  He really believed in this America.  His disappointment came

when he realized that that America was a far cry from the real America

where its illegal to be poor, where you can't just camp on the side of the

road, and where the public good has nothing at all to do with the public.

 

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@acs.appstate.edu                      P.O. Box 12149

http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586          Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:29:02 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Women

 

Reply to message from dcarter@TOGETHER.NET of Mon, 21 Jul

 

>> realized that there was some unfairness for women.

>Upon what do you base your statement about Kerouac giving consideration

>to the woman question?  I have to agree with Bill and James here and

>perhaps even more strongly assert that he never had any idea of what a

>woman's mind or point of view might have been.  To put it as blatently as

>he certainly did in VOC and OTR, he saw women as cunts.  He never talked

>about a woman has being intelligent or independent, or ever even came

>close to understanding a woman's mindset.  And despite the fact that

>we are talking about the forties and fifties, there were certainly

>independent and professional women to be found.  When he took a woman to

>dinner or met one at a party, he certainly never had anything in mind

>close to wanting to more from her than sex.  How many women did he invite

>over to discuss his latest writing with?  He couldn't deal with a

>husband/wife situation and he certainly couldn't deal with a

>daughter/father relationship.  He was a great writer and the humanness he

>so eloquently described applied to women as well as men, but I think he

>was a sexist in every sense of the word.

>DC

 

 

the line that caught me here was, "To put it as blatently as he certainly did

in VOC & OTR, he saw women as cunts."  The biggest problem I have

with ole Jack is: who's the narrator in his novels. Is it Jack who says

this, thinks this, or is it a character of his?  Are his novels fiction or

biography?  True, he wrote about things that really happened & he even used

real names & then made up psydonyms later on....but were these people the

REAL Allen & Burroughs & Neal, or Allen, Burroughs, Neal, Carolyn, LuAnne

etc. as seen by Jack....which would in itself make them somewhat fictionalized

from who they REALLY were.  I don't remember coming across this line in

OTR, & I never read VOC, but I do remember coming acorss other lines in OTR

such as (gotta get my copy here), "The truth of the matter is we don't

understand our women, we blame on them and it's all our fault."  Which

doesn't _sound_ sexist to me....and from Carolyn Cassady's descriptions of

Jack in Off the Road, he didn't come across as a sexist...maybe becuase I

jsut can't picture a sexist as being as sensitive as jack was.  I mean, we

know that when it came to sex he evidently was rather shy about it...so if

he did only see women as cunts, he sure didn't go about getting some the

way the typical gigalo would....& when compared to the image of Neal, Jack

was defiently mild-mannered with the women.  It _is_ true, very ture, that

he didn't know how to handle his relationships with women....but I have to

side with the other side...it wasn't necessarily becuase he was a

sexist...he just didn't know _how_.

 

Diane. (H)

 

--

Life is weird.  Remember to brush your teeth.

--Heidi A. Emhoff

                                                  ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

                                                  Diane M. Homza

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 21 Jul 1997 23:40:36 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Cody: the last 100 pages

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

James Stauffer wrote:

>

> Diane,

>

> Admittedly I haven't yet made the last 100 pages, but your argument

> troubles me, as this book does.

>

> Why is this America's fault?  This part misses me completely.  Writers

> have been dealing with the inevitability of death since Homer and the

> Biblical writers.  As long as man has been writing this has been at the

> center of it.  Doesn't make it any easier to accept, but it's certainly

> not Jack's discovery tho he sometimes seems to think so.

>

> Modern life everywhere has been tough on heroes.  I suspect even Homer

> thought it was better in the old days.  Again, not a new discovery by

> JK.  I think that this is why the book strikes me as so damn

> frustratingly naive.  How does America fail Cody? Are we to infer that

> had Cody been in France or India or the USSR his fate would have been

> much different.  Color me dense, but I just don't get it. This goes

> back

> to the argument that Corso and Ginsberg make that America failed Jack

> so

> he drank himself to death.  America fails us all.  All of our countries

> fail us.  Life often seems a bad joke.  If we don't do our best to

> hasten our deaths are we showing a lack of artistic senstivity or what?

>

> James Stauffer

 

 

James,

 

I think your argument about "Why is it America's fault?" also troubles me

more than Jack's despair about human life.  All humans inevitably fail

other humans, heros also fail us because they are cloaked in the

perceptions of a human mind.  Our frailties are as great as our

strengths, that's what makes living interesting.  I think that the

America that failed Jack is somewhat larger than an American dream that

failed.  America fails all of us.  It failed all of the beats.  The thing

that attracts me to Ginsberg is that in spite of what he saw as America's

"hardheartedness" he wrote such absolutely positive poetry.  Even in Howl

he is saying "look at the way things are but this isn't the way they have

to be."  When it came to things he thought needed changing in society

and culture, he took action.  I get the feeling from VOC that, yes, if he

had been born in another country, Jack thinks he might not have this

despair.  He talks in Mexico about watching the Indian lifestyle and

thinking that they didn't even know that we had an atom bomb.  He writes

of the misery of watching the masses going to work everyday, and paying

taxes, and being failed in their expectations.  In VOC he doesn't dwell

on the "highs" of crossing America as he did even in OTR.  Would he feel

differently about the America we have today; an America in which he would

could have seen himself as successful as a writer, an America that at

its core has the same failings it did in the time he was writing about?

I think I keep searching for something more positive in his vision, the

human that despite the fact that he's going to die rises to beauty and

joy in the face of that, someone who that in spite of the failings of

America sees hope in the indominitable spirit of the individuals that

make up America.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:39:12 -0400

Reply-To:     SSASN@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: For Chris Drummond (&D.Carter&J.Stauffer)

 

Dear Chris:

 

Your post of 97-07-19 03:41:55 EDT, "Jack's Sexuality", hit on a very

important point that is often overlooked amidst the energy and fireworks that

the "kicks" aspect of JK's works generate.  Just as he tried, in vain, to

distract himself from the "darkness" and demons and whip up a sense of "joy"

through his writing, some readers, it seems to me, have been fooled more

successfully into not seeing into the ultimate abyss than the author himself.

 I am the one you referred to when you wrote:  "Someone said something about

Jack's books being about running from something and toward it at the same

time...".  My exact words, in a response to a post from Sherri way back on

July 12, were:  "....Throughout OTR, it seems that only in the pendulum

movement back and forth across the continent itself is there a fleeting

capture of "IT", what they are looking for is just behind or ahead in the

flow of movement.  He and most of the others he writes about are running away

from and toward something concurrently, in an unending treadmill like an

experiential/emotional food chain....".  The most insightful aspect of the

new Kerouac tribute cd, KICKS JOY DARKNESS, which has generated some

commentary on this List, is the title itself.  These, indeed, are the core

ingredients of all his writings.  Somewhat understandably, we would often

rather revel in the first 2 components, they're simply more fun.  But a

careful and honest reading of OTR and the other works reveals a deeper and

sadder message at the end of the road, so to speak.  JK and the Beats

certainly got past the totalitarian, conformist milieu of their (and, let's

not kid ourselves, our) day, their doing this in and of itself was a

startling breath of fresh air in especial contrast to their time and place,

where grey flannel, tv-dinner consumer slavery was hitting its stride in its

own freshly-minted crassness in the wake of WWII.   But when JK got past all

of that, what did he ultimately find?  His one long work which all his books

comprise are a chronicle of DESPERATION and ultimately DESPAIR, following the

same tragic course that his life took.  The sound and fury of kicks and joy

ALWAYS end in darkness.  This is not to say that we shouldn't appreciate or

find credible the other ingredients, they are authentic and courageous in the

context of their, or any, time and place.  But ultimately, JK's message might

be paraphrased as follows: "I have overcome and put aside the illusory and

meaningless distractions of the society from which I came, and have gone on a

desperate quest for meaning, through religion, experience, the very act of

movement itself-  but alas, I only see MORE clearly than ever the final

futility of it all, darkness and death claim everyone, no matter how wildly,

loudly or "freely" they thrash about".  As James Stauffer wrote in a recent

post, the foregoing is not exactly a new discovery to be credited to JK, it

is a theme that runs from Homer to Hemingway and through today and for as

long as the human condition exists.  But it was JK's fate to RE-discover this

yet again, the particularly repressive society he emerged from and became an

outsider from only heightening the despair of his ultimate discovery.  In my

opinion, it is not the task of the artist to necessarily make new

discoveries, but to express the eternal truths that are re-discovered

(despite our best efforts more than ever) in every generation, Beat or

otherwise.  Diane Carter, in her "Cody:  the last 100 pages" post of today,

has strongly picked up on the theme I'm running from, with and toward here.

 I don't blame her for needing a drink after comprehending JK's ultimate

statement in VOC, it's not for the squeamish or those who insist on looking

at the "bright" side.  But as Ginsberg pointed out, JK's writings are the

result of a frank understanding of and reaction to the "quivering meat wheel"

of our mortal existence, in America or anywhere else on the planet where

"death needs time for what it kills to grow in, for ah pook's sweet sake" to

quote WSB.  Speaking of being frank, this may be stretching things (what the

hell, I've gone this far and this paragraph is getting close to the length of

one of those JK rolls), but I think that the presentation of the character

Frank Booth in the film BLUE VELVET hits on the same point that JK brings

home in VOC & elsewhere.  He wildly runs rampant, a violent pure id mauling

everything and everyone in his path- but, at the conclusion of every

encounter, he quiets down and says "now it's dark".  JK would have understood

and been delightfully disturbed by this portrayal had he lived to see it.

 

Getting back to your original post that set me off here, I am also a big fan

of DESOLATION ANGELS among all the JK works that I have read so far, it

probably would be my desert island choice.  And again, there is no escape,

either all by himself on Desolation Peak or among the revelers in the city,

from the darkness.  I also agree that JK's particular demons in the sexual

and religious departments greatly added to the torment and irreconcilability

that afflicted him and drove him to destruction, as predicted in the works he

created along the way.  He has to have been one of the most conflicted and

unhappy people in the annals of artistry.  Many recent posts have dealt with

how stingy and uncaring JK was toward Neal Cassady, but if it's any

consolation, JK paid a very heavy price for his mythologizing of NC at least

as much as NC paid for being mythologized.  Thoughtful and introverted,

happier to sit in a corner and take notes on than to dive into a scene much

of the time, he was trapped in a caricature of the mythical Dean Moriarty

after OTR made him famous overnight.  His appalling peasant apron-string

mother and later his nurse-wife Stella tried to shoo away the fans who

misunderstood his message and wanted him to be NC-DM, while he cowered and

drank in a corner, the antithesis of the fearlessly free life that a surface

reading of his works evokes.

 

Anyway, without quoting or referring to any more of its particulars, I think

your post is right on the money and am proud to have been woven into it.

 

Regards,

 

Arthur S. Nusbaum

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:25:42 -0400

Reply-To:     GYENIS@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Eastward Journey, really the end

 

>>> I didn't finish my message on my eastward jouney before I sent it out so

I'm finishing it now. Sorry about that.

 

>From New Orleans went up to Durham, North Carolina and then went to visit

some people in a town called Todd (about 2 hours away). The people own a

General Store that has become quite a tourist trap. They sell penny candy for

a nickel a piece.

 

Then went to Rocky Mount, where Kerouac lived with his sister Nin. (No, that

is not an abbreviation for Nine Inch Nails, it's short for Caroline). Rocky

Mount is about 45 minutes east of Raleigh. It is where Neil Cassady shows up

on Christmas Eve to see Jack (in ON THE ROAD). It is also where Jack wrote a

few of his books on the back porch of Nin's house. John Dorfner has a book

out on Rocky Mount with pictures of the Kerouac house if you want more info

on that.

 

>From North Carolina went up to Wash DC where we hung out and looked at the

monuments. I lived in Wash DC for 10 years, and I still think it is one of

the best tourist towns around with all the free museums and events going on.

Hang out in Adams Morgan, or 14th Street and U Street. Only Yuppies go to

Georgetown (even though that has a few good spots as well). Capitol Hill has

a real cool bar (with all the deer butts on the wall) but I forget it's name

right now, maybe Howard can tell you.

 

>From there went to New York, which is where I am right now. Since I've

arrived here, I have gone to McSorley's, my favorite place for a beer in the

city. McSorley's is the city's oldest bar, open since 1854 or so.

 

Walked around the village a little - Washington Square, Tompkins Park (or is

it Square). Also walked through Central Park which is one of my favorite

places in the city because you are almost totally cut off from the city.

There are places there where you see no buildings or cars, and just barely

hear the rumblings of the city.

 

Also went to Coney Island and rode the Wonder Wheel, this giant Ferris Wheel

that is a trip in itself, with only the rust holding it together (and maybe

spit).

 

And rode the Cyclone, the best rollercoaster in the world (ok, that was just

New York hype). Sat in the front car and came to that first mighty drop that

I believe is slightly concave so that you are hurtling through empty air

before you smash into the bottom of the valley where you find your stomach at

the bottom of the sole of your feet with only your shoes preventing it from

splattering on the floor of the car.  And only $4.00.

 

So I am now at the end of the eastward Journey. I'm here for a few days

before I head back west. I'll be taking a different mode of transportation.

Maybe ride the Hound (bus that is), or one of those drive-a-ways.

 

Trip took 3 weeks or so, drove 5,239 miles, and I think 14 states, but who's

counting.

 

Hope everybody has their own adventure in their own way.

enjoy,

Attila

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:32:04 -0500

Reply-To:     Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      next book i vote westernland

MIME-Version: 1.0

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imho what about reading one of each of the big three,

voc was good, next western land then maybe howl?

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:26:02 EDT

Reply-To:     Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Love triangle

 

Barbara Foster, a colleague at CUNY, has recently written a book

entitled "Three in Love: Menages a trois from ancient to modern times."

There's a chapter on the Beats that focuses on Jack, Neal, and Carolyn.

Carolyn and  Foster have corresponded and Carolyn seems to appreciate

Foster's approach.  I'll try to get a hold of a copy and post a review

in more detail.    For those who are interested, the book is published

by Harper's and sells for $25.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 22:47:36 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Finis Europae (poem).

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

                        Finis Europae.

                        Finis Europae.

                Finis Europae.Finis Europae.

                        Finis Europae?

                        Finis Europae?

                        Finis Europae.

                        WORKERS OF ALL LANDS

                                UNITE

                        KARL            MARX

        THE     PHILOSOPHERS    HAVE    ONLY

        INTERPRETED     THE     WORLD           IN

        VARIOUS WAYS.   THE             POINT

        HOWEVER IS      TO      CHANGE  IT.

Finis Europae?Finis Europae?Finis Europae?Finis Europae?

        THE             POINT

        HOWEVER IS      TO      CHANGE  IT.

                        Finis Europae.

                        Finis Europae!

                        KARL            MARX

                        KARL            MARX

                        Finis Europae?

                        Finis Europae?

                        Finis Europae.

        VARIOUS WAYS.   THE             POINT

        HOWEVER IS

                        Finis Europae.

                        Finis Europae!

                        the point

                        the point is

                        finis Europae!

 

---

yrs

Rinaldo.

*Writers have been dealing with the inevitability of death

since Homer and the Biblical writers.--James Stauffer*

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:45:47 -0500

Reply-To:     RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: next book i vote westernland

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

>

> imho what about reading one of each of the big three,

> voc was good, next western land then maybe howl?

 

This makes quite a bit of sense.  It seems there are several on the list

that could help us along through the Western Lands - patricia and arthur

come to mind immediately.

 

Burroughs influence on Allen and Jack in the new york days is just so

powerful - it seems a mistake to let his writings drift into a fog

merely because he has outlived the odds.

 

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas, america

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:59:17 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Hunter's ale

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Newsgroups: alt.journalism.gonzo

 

 

So I'm staring at the coolers in the liquor store on Friday night trying

to be a good consumer and decide whose coffers I will fill with my $7 for

their product when I notice a special 16-ouncer (sold singly) with a

label image scrawled by Ralph Steadman. I laughed at the $3 price tag and

kept looking, soon finding another 6-pack also apparently illustrated by

Steadman, with a demented clown-topped figure standing open-jawed next to

the words GOOD BEER and NO CENSORSHIP. Upon closer inspection I noticed

that HST signature/seal of approval and a quote from the Good Doctor: "If

you must roll old ladies down hills / and you don't want to pay the bills

/ Try to be nice, and clean off their lice / with powerful Road Dog Ale."

An advertisement couldn't have been more in the American spirit, and I

eagerly grabbed a 6 from this Aspen-based microbrew, agreeing with the

other prominently-featured Thompson quote: "Good people drink good beer."

 

While I am not stupid enough to buy a broken operating system for my

computer just because the company paid Allen Ginsberg to read in

their commercial, or wear overpriced shoes because another co. gave cash

to Burroughs, I will favor an HST-endorsed microbrew over most any other

overpriced ale -- at least this one time.

 

Yes, the beer was a welcome component to a night of debauchery on a

local public beach, and later that weekend I did call their 800/9DOGGIE

hotline for a catalog. But that's not saying I've fallen for the ad --

next time I may favor Rolling Rock and pretend its just as good, who

knows.

 

"There is an ancient Celtic axiom that says 'Good people drink good beer.'

Which is true, then as now. Just look around you in any public bar-room,

and you will quickly see: Bad people drink bad beer. Think about it."

 

 

 

<http://dsl.org/m/>  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is

email stutz@dsl.org  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long

                     as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO

                     WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 20:18:48 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hunter's ale

Comments: To: michaelstutz <stutz@dsl.org>

 

In a message dated 97-07-22 18:11:06 EDT, you write:

 

<< "There is an ancient Celtic axiom that says 'Good people drink good beer.'

 Which is true, then as now. Just look around you in any public bar-room,

 and you will quickly see: Bad people drink bad beer. Think about it."

 

  >>

This is the only axiom that I can attest to as 100% correct and it's not just

because I'm celtic. My other part is Indian so firewater doesn't mix.

Charles

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:50:11 -0400

Reply-To:     Mcb93940@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonny Coop <Mcb93940@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Fwd: Kerouac's Ancestor

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Can anyone provide some info for this guy?  Please feel free to e-mail me

directly or post to the list if appropriate and I'll forward. =20

 

Thanks!

 

Jerry Cimino

1-800-KER-OUAC

www.kerouac.com

---------------------

Forwarded message:

From:   lebd@globetrotter.qc.ca (Dany Leblanc)

Sender: jerry@kerouac.com

Resent-from:    lebd@globetrotter.qc.ca

To:     jerry@kerouac.com

Date: 97-07-21 14:28:57 EDT

 

I Jerry,

 

Is it possible for you to place this message in your internet page? That

will be great. If not it is O.K.

 

Thanks

______________________

 

I am searching for the Birth place of Jack Kerouac's Ancestor. This

Ancestor was Maurice Louis Alexandre LE BRIS de KERVOACH. He was the son =

of

Fran=E7ois Hyacinthe LE BRIS de KERVOACH and V=E9ronique Magdeleine de

MEUSEUILLAC (Muzillac). This family lived in the Center of Brittany

(Episcopate of Cornouaille), maybe in the departments of Finist=E8re, C=F4=

tes

d'Armor or Morbihan (1680-1710).

 

Jack Kerouac visited this region in 1965. He wrote the book, Satori in

Paris, on this Quest for his Ancertor. Many "fans" of Kerouac are concern=

ed

by the discovery of this Birth place.

 

The present Search out call is made by

Cl=E9ment Kirouac

Qu=E9bec, Canada

 

Thanks to all for any information (French or English)

 

E-mail   lebd@globetrotter.qc.ca

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:51:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>

Subject:      need help, please

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

i was wondering if anyone knew where i could get a full version of Allen =

Ginsberg's essay "Poetry, Violence, and The Trembling Lambs"?  i was =

reading about it in Schumacher's bio, and was extremely interested.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:17:46 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Lines of Milton requested from Dave

 

Say Heav'nly Muse, shall not thy sacred vein

afford a Present to the infant God?

 

 

   Hath took no print of the approaching light,

And all the spangled host keep watch in squadrons bright?

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:24:24 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Lines not requested by Dave

 

Go home

to unwind the mummy roll by roll

 

 

Life is a poor host grabbing guests who came

swirling great pleated sheets wrapping the stars

Leaving, streaming party coils to their last car

some on twilight's slightly twisted cane

 

>From Charles Plymell's book, Forever Wider, Scarecrow Press 1985

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:34:13 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Chapter 2 ?????? p. 25--29

 

David

The lines you quoted by Milton have some of the same words

as from his 1629 poem, On The Morning of Christ's Nativity

 

Blake got a hold of some old rye bread. It lasted for days. Became moldy. He

wrote and painted for weeks, ran naked in his yard. Then he slept for days.

Woke up and decided to bepoet and wrote Songs of Innocence and Experience.

C Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:37:09 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Cody: the last 100 pages

Comments: To: dcarter@together.net

 

In a message dated 97-07-23 00:08:42 EDT, you write:

 

<<   So I can't really compare Joyce's techniques to anything having

 to do with art.  I also do not have a scanner or know any >>

 

Just go look at any portrait 'till you start hallucinating.

CP

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:56:28 -0600

Reply-To:     stand666@bitstream.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Subject:      BLAKE DREAMS

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Hi Charles,

 

I've been working on a small collection of poems for the last 6

months, and W. Blake along with J. Milton have guest appearances.

If you want to have a sneak prevue I can send them your way. A good

share of them are starting to show up in the little mags. I'm not

sure if they would post them on the Beat-L. Let me know my friend.

 

Richard Houff

Pariah Press

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:18:58 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: must I again?

Comments: To: BOHEMIAN@maelstrom.stjohns.edu

 

In a message dated 97-07-19 12:16:46 EDT, you write:

 

<< God, I love/hate this medium!

  >>

 

< how linear>

 

Damn, I knew I shuda copyrited my lectures  back there in the 70's

before these kids morphically resonated to the Information age. Oh well, I'll

have to start another

ROUND of ideas.

 

Old Kaw Tribe saying:

Men dream so earth continue

Old Zuni Mothermen saying:

Women plant seed too

line grows from earth to sky

 

Datura Frenzy smell

Dead scent of time

Fracture started when great

claws clawed sacred circle

Maw for Uranium power

Bad Karma mutations

 

Old man knows trail

Better hurry

Future can't stop dreaming

Remember, Custer was a loser

 

Charley Far Eyes

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:43:23 -0400

Reply-To:     Aeschylus3@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tristan Jean <Aeschylus3@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: What NEXT?

 

As long as it's poetry, why not read Rimbaud's Une saison en enfer (A Season

in Hell) .... it was enormously influential to the Beats ... especially

Kerouac, I believe ..... oh well, just a thought ...

 

tristan jean

aeschylus3@aol.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:55:40 -0400

Reply-To:     "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

Subject:      VOC Ending

MIME-Version: 1.0

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"Nobody knows what going to happen to anybody beyond the forlorn rags

of growing old."

 

On the Road

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:41:32 -0700

Reply-To:     runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: Cody: the last 100 pages

Comments: To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

In-Reply-To:  <970723003708_104964723@emout06.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 9:37 PM -0700 7/22/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

 

 

> In a message dated 97-07-23 00:08:42 EDT, you write:

>

> <<   So I can't really compare Joyce's techniques to anything having

>  to do with art.  I also do not have a scanner or know any >>

>

> Just go look at any portrait 'till you start hallucinating.

 

 

Where would you start?  Anywhere.  "Um, from the nose head south until you

reach the gizzard. from there, take a sharp left and careen up to the

middle ear.  Ah, sit and rest a while.  listen to the sound of the train

upon the tracks.  bored?  head up the forest on your left again.  Slide

down the firewall of muscles below you and dare dare dare

 

I hear the voice of my mother calling

 

 

 

 

> CP

 

Douglas

 

 

>>off to wrok  [[no beat access :-(

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/

step aside, and let the man go thru

        ---->  let the man go thru

super bon-bon (soul coughing)

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:29:55 -0400

Reply-To:     Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: need help, please

Comments: To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <01BC96E9.89F962E0@tty106.softdisk.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Ryan L. Stonecipher wrote:

 

> i was wondering if anyone knew where i could get a full version of Allen

 Ginsberg's essay "Poetry, Violence, and The Trembling Lambs"?  i was reading

 about it in Schumacher's bio, and was extremely interested.

>

 

Call the City Lights bookstore in San Francisco (don't have the number in

front of me, call information).  City Lights was Allen's original

publisher and they are likely to have most anything he wrote in their

catologues.  You can probably order it from them.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:20:04 EDT

Reply-To:     Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      San Francisco Book Signing

 

The other day I mentioned a book called "Three in Love," which contains

a chapter on Jack, Neal & Carolyn.  The author, Barbara Foster, will be

signing her bookat the following  book stores:   Borders Bookstore, 400

Post St, San Francisco, on Aug. 6th at 6:00 pm;  Book Passage in Corte

Madera on Aug. 6th at 7:30 pm; and at Gaia Books in Berkeley on Aug. 8th

at 7:30.  Thought this might give all you party animals in San Francisco

something to talk about.  For further information, contact your local

book store or Barbara Foster at bfoster@shiva.Hunter.cuny.edu.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:42:56 -0400

Reply-To:     Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: need help, please

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.970723142756.5636A-100000@cap1.capaccess. org>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Ryan L. Stonecipher wrote:

>

>> i was wondering if anyone knew where i could get a full version of Allen

> Ginsberg's essay "Poetry, Violence, and The Trembling Lambs"?  i was reading

> about it in Schumacher's bio, and was extremely interested.

>>

 

I can't remember where this essay originally appeared.  Probably the

easiest place to find it reprinted is in the volume, *Poetics of the New

American Poetry*, ed. Donald Allen and Warren Tallman (New York:  Grove

Press, 1973).  I have no idea if the book still is in print or not.  If

not, try a university library and/or interlibrary loan.  Ginsberg's "How

Kaddish Happened" is another excellent essay from this same book.

 

Tony

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:48:40 -0700

Reply-To:     "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject:      Re: Lines not requested by Dave

Comments: To: "CVEditions@aol.com" <CVEditions@aol.com>

Comments: cc: babu <babu@electriciti.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

CP writ:

 

><<

>Go home

>to unwind the mummy roll by roll

>

>

>Life is a poor host grabbing guests who came

>swirling great pleated sheets wrapping the stars

>Leaving, streaming party coils to their last car

>some on twilight's slightly twisted cane

>

>>From Charles Plymell's book, Forever Wider, Scarecrow Press 1985

>>>

>

><< end of forwarded material >>

>

like to watch slick slack

snap dragon passengers

down Hollywood Blvd.

they go         ---->           o{--- [

squeezing in out doors

blazing on horse and speed

the mofos spit and scream

like junkies with die-cut

Model T possibilities

 

>Douglas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:18:03 -0600

Reply-To:     stand666@bitstream.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Subject:      BLAKE DREAMS & HENDRIX

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Hi Bentz,

 

I haven't heard from Luther or Alligator Records so it must be

pretty bad. Hope to find out more and will keep you posted. By

all means post the interview on the Hendrix list. When Luther

was young, people used to compare the two. I think he got a kick

out of that because he really dug Hendrix. I'm not sure if they

ever met.

 

Richard Houff

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:59:27 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac (was For Chris Drummond (&D.Carter&J.Stauffer))

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Arthur Nusbaum wrote:

>

>  The sound and fury of kicks and joy

> ALWAYS end in darkness.  This is not to say that we shouldn't > appreciate or

> find credible the other ingredients, they are authentic and courageous

> in the

> context of their, or any, time and place.  But ultimately, JK's message

> might

> be paraphrased as follows: "I have overcome and put aside the illusory

> and

> meaningless distractions of the society from which I came, and have >

> gone on a

> desperate quest for meaning, through religion, experience, the very act

> of

> movement itself-  but alas, I only see MORE clearly than ever the final

> futility of it all, darkness and death claim everyone, no matter how >

> wildly,

> loudly or "freely" they thrash about".

 

Arthur,

 

I am still pondering this all-encompassing darkness and despair.  The

fact that yes, death claims us all, thus our lives must be full of

desperation, loss and dispair, that seems in Cody to be where Kerouac is

indeed going.  But it also brings to mind the thought that without the

opposite of sadness and despair, those feelings would be meaningless.  I

get the feeling that what you describe as "running away from and toward

something concurrently" still inevitably results in loss and despair.  I

want to understand why Kerouac could not ever find what he was looking

for, at least to the point of seeing joy and despair as dualities that

both exist in the moment, and really, the meaning of human life is in the

moments.  How can anyone who at times writes with such gushyness about

the joys of being alive, be stuck so on finality and loss and death?  I

don't need to see brightness but only to understand a little more how he

thought.  I see him as running toward and away from despair, which seems

like an exhausting process in and of itself.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:57:21 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      The Starwick Episodes

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While poking around in our local library the other day, I found a small

book called "The Starwick Episodes" edited by Richard S. Kennedy.  It is

a complilation of the portions that Maxwell Perkins cut out of Of Time

and the River.  Frank Starwick was based upon a friend of Thomas Wolfe's

named Kenneth Raisbeck. It is in itself an interesting story.  The first

episode is where Starwick introduces Eugene Gant to Ulysses.  A quite

amusing section.  If you have an affection for Thomas Wolfe, and would

like to understand Jack Kerouac's work and inspiration, this little book

is worth reading.

 

Take care, and peace to all.

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:49:03 -0400

Reply-To:     Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>

Subject:      hello...

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 Hey, I'm a young guy from Michigan, and am really interested in

beats....if you have onything you'd like to help me with...well, i'd

appreciate it.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:07:31 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      nyc/fla beat haunts

MIME-Version: 1.0

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I will be doing some travelling shortly -- destinations NYC and southern

Florida. Can anyone email me any recommendations of Beatish or thislisty

places to check out in these locales?

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:41:51 -0400

Reply-To:     Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>

Subject:      looking for guidance...

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i'm sorry if i was unclear earlier...

i would like to find out if there are any beat hangouts in michigan...

or someplace i could check for them

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:45:07 -0700

Reply-To:     James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac (was For Chris Drummond (&D.Carter&J.Stauffer))

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(snipped like sticky bud)

> I

>want to understand why Kerouac could not ever find what he was looking

>for, at least to the point of seeing joy and despair as dualities that

>both exist in the moment, and really, the meaning of human life is in the

>moments.  How can anyone who at times writes with such gushyness about

>the joys of being alive, be stuck so on finality and loss and death?  I

>don't need to see brightness but only to understand a little more how he

>thought.  I see him as running toward and away from despair, which seems

>like an exhausting process in and of itself.

>DC

 

Diane,

  I don't know that I'd say that the "meaning of human life is in the

moments" but I recognize the "moment" as the temporal space in which one

finds joy OR despair.  I don't believe that joy and despair are "dualities

that both exist in the moment" for any one person; you sense / experience

either one or the other.  The person who can consistently experience both at

the same time is a Buddha.  Kerouac ran from despair, but it caught up with

him and he faced it.  Kerouac ran into despair simply by moving through

life.  He ran into it, he didn't run for it.  Every obsessed explorer is

doomed to exhaustion.

  Back to the beginning of what I quoted from you:  what exactly do you

think that Kerouac was looking for?  Personally, I think that he found what

he was looking for:  a measure of comfort.  And he was probably quite

pleased that they bottle it.

                                                        Just some thoughts,

                                                        James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:55:53 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: looking for guidance...

Comments: To: Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <199707241441.HAA22804@mailtod-2.alma.webtv.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Julian Ruck wrote:

 

> i would like to find out if there are any beat hangouts in michigan...

> or someplace i could check for them

 

ann arbor, shaman drum bookstore and surrounding environs...is it state

street? this is the where i first met our list's arthur nusbaum several

years ago. also local jewel heart chapter and home of gelek rinpoche. i'm

sure arthur will have more comment on all this.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:07:38 -0400

Reply-To:     SSASN@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: For Diane M. Homza, "In regards"

 

Dear Diane:

 

I would like to offer some suggestions for your reading of NAKED LUNCH.  It

was also the first WSB book that I read in its entirety, almost 2 decades

ago, and it can indeed be a little daunting as your first exposure to one of

the great literary and cultural figures of our waning century, and a prophet

of the next and beyond.  In the intervening years since I was in your

position, I have read, seen, heard and interacted with virtually every

published item that I am aware of by or about WSB, including the great man

himself whom I visited 2&1/2 years ago.  Besides my posts that are flowing at

a steady rate on this List and to some of its correspondents individually, I

have done a small amount of scholarly writing on him myself.  So, I believe I

am qualified to answer your call for support and advice.

 

After having read NL several times and absorbed a lot of commentary on it

from many sources, I thought I had a fair handle on it.  But luckily for you,

there now exists an unprecedented guide, a key to understanding this

kaleidescopic work.  An audio version of the book, read by WSB himself, is

available.  I have the cd version, I know there is a cassette edition also,

and it should still be available in stock or by order, it only came out about

2 years ago this fall.  Although abridged, it is 3 hours long and most of the

text is there.  I cannot stress how highly I recommend that you listen to WSB

read NL, it is clear, well-paced, and the very ways in which he emphasizes

and modulates words and sentences bring them into focus and out of the

fragmentary fog from which they can fade in and out of the text without this

aid.  You could finish reading NL and then obtain the audio edition, or

better yet obtain and listen to it (at least twice) now, then return to your

reading.  My listening to the cd's no less than doubled my comprehension and

appreciation of this critical work.  But I should note something at this

point-  what I've said above does not mean that you can't enjoy or benefit

from NL without hearing it read by the author, one of the greatest pleasures

I have gotten from it before or after being exposed to the cd's is to savor

the evocative and poetic phrases that have a life of their own and jump off

the page to burrow, so to speak, in your brain.  Some of my favorites from

this rich treasure trove are:  "The days glide by, strung on a syringe with a

long thread of blood", "Motel...Motel...Motel...broken neon

arabesque...loneliness moans across the continent like foghorns over still

oily water of tidal rivers" (one of my all-time favorite phrases in all of

literature), and so many more.  As the author advises near the end, you can

re-order the pages and read them in any combination, this is a roiling,

organic work that should not be read with an attitude that it can be reined

in, amenable to cliff-note condensation.

 

After you have read and heard NL, I further advise you to go back and

chronologically read all the works that precede it, in this way you will see

how WSB arrived at NL and further appreciate his achievement in the context

of his life and work up to that point.  The books, all still in print, are in

order as follows:  JUNKY, QUEER, THE YAGE LETTERS (with Allen Ginsberg) and

THE LETTERS OF WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS (1945-1959), which were written, mostly

to AG, during the period leading up to the first publication of NL.  There is

another volume of letters written by WSB to AG, many of which do not overlap

with the ones in the other, but it is hard to find.  If you can locate it

(it's just titled WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS\LETTERS TO ALLEN GINSBERG 1953-1957),

I highly recommend it, some of the letters are real gems.  The best letters

of all, in my opinion, are those from WSB to AG in TYL above, it is a

perversely hilarious and quintessentially Burroughsian work that is often

overlooked, short and fun to read again and again.  All of these early works

are written in a lucid, easily comprehensible style, although you'll know

that only WSB could have written them.  Along with the above works, you

should also read the biography LITERARY OUTLAW:  THE LIFE AND TIMES OF

WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS by Ted Morgan, concurrently, before or after them.  It

will give you a good initial grounding in the life and experiences from which

the works emerged, it was published in and goes up to 1988, beyond the NL

period so good enough for your purposes at this point.  As with the other

major Beat figures, the life and art are particularly intertwined and mirrors

of each other.  Finally, you should attempt to see the film biography

BURROUGHS, directed by Howard Brookner, originally released in 1985.  Like

LO, it provides an initial overview.

 

I can assure you that you won't be sorry if you follow my suggestions, and

would like to know how you're coming along from time to time.  It may seem as

if I've burdoned you with a semester's worth of reading, listening and

viewing, but if you catch the WSB virus, you will quickly devour these items

and want MORE.  A few more NL comments to conclude for now-  The introductory

essays which probably appear in whatever edition you're reading, TESTIMONY

CONCERNING A SICKNESS and LETTER FROM A MASTER ADDICT TO DANGEROUS DRUGS are

remarkable in their clarity of language and are in themselves minor

masterpieces separable from NL even as they enrich it.  And your comment

about Macbeth is interesting.  While an undergraduate at Harvard, WSB studied

Shakespeare, and he is familiar with and weaves quotes from the Bard in his

works and conversation.  WSB arrived at his avant-garde experiments, which

become literally more cutting-edge with the cutups after NL, from a firm,

rounded educational and reading background, not to mention his myriad

experiences right up to and over the edge.

 

Well, enough for now.  Good luck, and I envy your reading these works for the

first time, there's nothing like that first shot......

 

Regards,

 

Arthur S. Nusbaum

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:31:34 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      To Sleep. To Sleep.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

        Ma' Pa'

        il bacino

        della

        buonanotte,

        Ma' Pa'

        a kiss before

        going to sleep

        in the nite

        Ma' Pa'

 

---

yrs

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:11:59 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      no-time july

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Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Spoke to Bob Rosenthal briefly today. Strange to think of that

three-month-distant Spring 2am NYC goodbye, and ran into this account of it:

 

--

 

Allen Ginsberg

 

April 4 Friday

 

That evening Peter Hale calls and asks me to come quickly, Allen is in a

coma, dying. Pull on my sneakers and taxi down, trying to keep calm

breathing, trying to arrive in state of peace. 15 minutes after Pete's call

he opens the door to the loft and I go in to join those already gathered. I

went and embraced big Peter--Orlovsky-and Eugene, Allen's brother. About 20

friends talking in low voices, looking lost, comforting each other.

 

After being diagnosed with inoperable liver cancer the previous Friday at

Beth Israel Hospital, Allen had been told he had maybe 2-5 months to live.

When I heard the news, for some reason I felt strongly that it would not be

that long--I felt that he would go very soon. He had come back home

Wednesday in good spirits, organizing things as ever, making plans for the

coming days. But someone, I forget who, had said Allen personally felt that

he had very little time left. A month or two, he thought. So Wednesday he

was busy, writing and making phone calls to his friends all over the world,

saying good-bye. Amiri Baraka said Allen called him and said "I'm dying, do

you need any money?" But Thursday he was much weaker, he could hobble from

bed to chair only with difficulty. There was a phonecall from Italy, in the

middle of it Allen begins to vomit, throws up right there on the phone!

"Funny," he says, "never done that before." Said he was very tired and

wanted to go to sleep. He fell asleep and later that night had a seizure and

slipped into a coma. He was alone. In the morning Bob Rosenthal discovered

him unconscious and called the Hospice doctor who came and told him that

Allen had most likely had a stroke and had hours to live. The task of

notifying family and friends began. Everyone had feared that as word spread,

there would be a huge throng appearing at the loft, but that wasn't the

case. People came and went quietly during the afternoon. Bob, Pete Hale,

Bill Morgan and Kaye Wright, the office staff, were busy constantly at the

phones making and receiving calls. Shelley Rosenthal and Rani Singh helping

with everything that needed doing. Eugene and several nieces and nephews of

Allen's consoling each other. Larry Rivers down from his apartment upstairs,

wandering around forlornly in his pink white and blue striped pajamas.

George and Anna Condo and their little girl. Francesco and Alba Clemente,

beloved friends of Allen's. Patti Smith sitting in tears with Oliver Ray and

her young daughter. Bob and Shelly's sons Aliah and Isaac. Mark Israel and

David Greenberg, two of Allen's young boyfriends. Philip Glass and June

Leaf. Simon Pettet. Andrew Wylie. Roy Lichtenstein. Steven Bornstein, who

had flown up from Florida. A few others, I don't remember who all was there.

I went to the back of the loft and Raymond Foye stood looking pale and so

sad. I told him he must be very blessed, he had spent so much time giving

support and love to the dying--Henry Geldzahler, Huncke, Harry Smith. "Yes,

but this is the big one, the hardest," he said. Allen lay in a narrow

hospital bed beside the windows overlooking 14th street. There were two

almost invisible tubes coming out of his nose, attached to a portable small

oxygen tank on the floor. His head was raised up on a couple of big striped

pillows and he looked tiny and frail, thin arms with bruised veins from

hospital tests sticking out from his Jewel Heart T-shirt. Head to the side,

slight shadows under the eyes. I had walked through the loft, people

whispering greetings, hugging, telling me all that had happened. But still

not really prepared for the sight of him. The windows were open, curtains

waving softly. His breathing was deep, slow, very labored, a snoring sound.

"Hey, Allen, wake up!" Joel, his cousin and doctor, was there constantly,

and a young lady nurse sat in the corner reading, occasionally getting up to

check on heart and pulse, or administer morphine for congestion. Gelek

Rinpoche said he thought Allen might last the night. Joel didn't think so. A

few chairs were set up nearby, and there was the big white leather Salvation

Army sofa of which he was so proud. People sat, or at intervals went to sit

beside the bed and hold his hand or whisper to him and kiss him, his hand or

cheek or head. An altar had been set up along one side of the loft and Gelek

Rinpoche and the other monks sat chanting and praying, the sound so soothing

constantly in the background, bells tinkling. I had a little throw-away

Woolworth's camera, and Gregory Corso asked me to take a picture of him with

Allen. He knelt beside the cot and placed his arm over Allen "like that

picture, or statue, of Adonais, right?" There was a medical chart, a picture

of the human skeleton, hanging over the bed. Bob said Allen had put it

there, half as a joke, half as a reminder. And Allen's beautiful picture of

Whitman gazing down from the wall at the other dear bearded poet in the bed

below. As it got late, many went home to try and catch a little sleep. It

was around 11. Bob and Pete were just playing it by ear, deciding that

anyone who wanted to stay would find a place , on the floor if necessary.

Peter Orlovsky was taking photos and I felt a little uncomfortable, the idea

of taking pictures at this time, but I figured, hey, if it was you, Allen'd

be the first one through the door camera in hand! Eventually, Eugene leaned

over, held Allen's hand, whispered "Good-bye little Allen. Good-bye little

Allen. I'll be back later. See you soon." He kissed him and left. And

Gregory-Gregorio-too, who told us to call him at once if there was any

change. Joel had said that there was no way to know how long it would be,

minutes or hours, surely not days. I had felt from the minute I saw Allen

there that it would be very soon. I sat at the foot of the bed where I had

spent the last few hours, holding his feet, rubbing them gently from time to

time. An occasional cigarette break- the little guest bedroom by the office

area was set up as the smoker's lounge. Bob and Pete and Bill were as strong

and remarkable as ever, supporting everyone, keeping a sense of humor, and

constantly dealing with the dozens of phonecalls, faxes, and the visitors as

they came and went. They'd had a few days for the news to sink in, but they

were dealing with -literally- hundreds of people over the phone or in person

who had just found out and were in the first stages of stunned, disbelieving

grief.

 

I had remained at the bedside and it was now after midnight. I could not

believe he still hung on, the breathing so difficult, the lungs slowly

filling with fluid. Those who had been there all day were exhausted. It was

down to a few now. Bob and Pete and Bill Morgan. Peter Orlovsky so bravely

dealing with his pain, strong Beverly holding his hand. David and Mark.

Patti and Oliver, there together all day trying to be brave and sometimes

giving way to red eyed tears. Simon Pettet sitting beside me for hours.

 

Allen's feet felt cooler than they had been earlier. I sat and thought of

the 33 years I'd known him, lived with him, my second father. And still he

breathed, but softer now.

At about 2 o'clock, everyone decided to try and get some rest. Bob and Joel

lay down in Allen's big bed near the cot where he lay, everyone found a sofa

or somewhere to stretch out.

 

Simon and I sat, just watching his face. Everyone was amazed at how

beautiful he looked-all lines of stress and age smoothed- he looked

patriarchal and strong. I had never seen him so handsome. The funny looking

little boy had grown into this most wonderful looking man. He would have

encouraged photos if he had known how wonderful he looked! But so tiny! He

seemed as fragile as a baby in his little T-shirt.

 

The loft was very quiet. Most were resting, half-asleep. Suddenly Allen

began to shake, a small convulsion wracked his body. I called out, and Joel

and Bob sat up and hurried over. I called louder, and everyone else came

running. It was about 2:15. Joel examined him, pulse, etc., and said that

his vital signs were considerably slower, he had had another seizure. The

breathing went on, weaker. His feet were cooler. Everyone sat or stood close

to the little bed, stroking and kissing him softly. Peter Orlovsky bent over

and kissed his head, saying, "Good-bye Darling."

 

Suddenly then a remarkable thing happened. A tremor went through him, and

slowly, impossibly, he began to raise his head. He weakly tried to sit up,

and his left arm lifted and extended. Then his eyes opened very slowly and

very wide. The pupils were wildly dilated. I thought I saw a look of

confusion or bewilderment. His head began to turn very slowly and his eyes

seemed to glance around him, gazing on each of us in turn. His eyes were so

deep, so dark, but Bob said that they were empty of sight. His mouth opened,

and we all heard as he seemed to struggle to say something, but only a soft

low sound, a weak "Aaah," came from him. Then his eyes began to close and he

sank back weakly onto the pillow. The eyes shut fully. He continued, then,

to struggle through a few more gasping breaths, and his mouth fell open in

an O. Joel said that these were the final moments, the O of the mouth the

sign of approaching death. I still continued to stroke his feet and thin

little legs, but the Tibetan Buddhist tradition is to not touch the body

after death, so I kissed him one final time and then let go.

 

At 2:39, Joel checked for vital signs and announced that the heart, so much

stronger than anyone knew, had stopped beating. A painless and gentle death.

The thin blue sheet was pulled up to his chin, and Peter Hale brought over a

tiny cup and spoon, and placed a few drops of a dark liquid between Allen's

lips. It was part of the Buddhist ritual-- the "last food." Bob put his hand

over Allen's eyes and said the Sh'ma. We all sat quietly in the dim light,

each with our own thoughts, saying good-bye.

 

--Rose Pettet

New York

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:04:57 -0500

Reply-To:     "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>

Subject:      Re: no-time july

Comments: To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

thank you so much for this reminder of poet father buddha glorious =

man...i never met him, but fell like kindred spirit...want to reach out =

touch his hand in the void...will miss him...

 

"Strange now to think of you, gone..."

AG, Kaddish

 

Ryan.

 

-----Original Message-----

From:   Michael Stutz [SMTP:stutz@DSL.ORG]

Sent:   Thursday, 24 July, 1997 6:12 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        no-time july

 

Spoke to Bob Rosenthal briefly today. Strange to think of that

three-month-distant Spring 2am NYC goodbye, and ran into this account of =

it:

 

--

 

Allen Ginsberg

 

April 4 Friday

 

That evening Peter Hale calls and asks me to come quickly, Allen is in a

coma, dying. Pull on my sneakers and taxi down, trying to keep calm

breathing, trying to arrive in state of peace. 15 minutes after Pete's =

call

he opens the door to the loft and I go in to join those already =

gathered. I

went and embraced big Peter--Orlovsky-and Eugene, Allen's brother. About =

20

friends talking in low voices, looking lost, comforting each other.

 

After being diagnosed with inoperable liver cancer the previous Friday =

at

Beth Israel Hospital, Allen had been told he had maybe 2-5 months to =

live.

When I heard the news, for some reason I felt strongly that it would not =

be

that long--I felt that he would go very soon. He had come back home

Wednesday in good spirits, organizing things as ever, making plans for =

the

coming days. But someone, I forget who, had said Allen personally felt =

that

he had very little time left. A month or two, he thought. So Wednesday =

he

was busy, writing and making phone calls to his friends all over the =

world,

saying good-bye. Amiri Baraka said Allen called him and said "I'm dying, =

do

you need any money?" But Thursday he was much weaker, he could hobble =

from

bed to chair only with difficulty. There was a phonecall from Italy, in =

the

middle of it Allen begins to vomit, throws up right there on the phone!

"Funny," he says, "never done that before." Said he was very tired and

wanted to go to sleep. He fell asleep and later that night had a seizure =

and

slipped into a coma. He was alone. In the morning Bob Rosenthal =

discovered

him unconscious and called the Hospice doctor who came and told him that

Allen had most likely had a stroke and had hours to live. The task of

notifying family and friends began. Everyone had feared that as word =

spread,

there would be a huge throng appearing at the loft, but that wasn't the

case. People came and went quietly during the afternoon. Bob, Pete Hale,

Bill Morgan and Kaye Wright, the office staff, were busy constantly at =

the

phones making and receiving calls. Shelley Rosenthal and Rani Singh =

helping

with everything that needed doing. Eugene and several nieces and nephews =

of

Allen's consoling each other. Larry Rivers down from his apartment =

upstairs,

wandering around forlornly in his pink white and blue striped pajamas.

George and Anna Condo and their little girl. Francesco and Alba =

Clemente,

beloved friends of Allen's. Patti Smith sitting in tears with Oliver Ray =

and

her young daughter. Bob and Shelly's sons Aliah and Isaac. Mark Israel =

and

David Greenberg, two of Allen's young boyfriends. Philip Glass and June

Leaf. Simon Pettet. Andrew Wylie. Roy Lichtenstein. Steven Bornstein, =

who

had flown up from Florida. A few others, I don't remember who all was =

there.

I went to the back of the loft and Raymond Foye stood looking pale and =

so

sad. I told him he must be very blessed, he had spent so much time =

giving

support and love to the dying--Henry Geldzahler, Huncke, Harry Smith. =

"Yes,

but this is the big one, the hardest," he said. Allen lay in a narrow

hospital bed beside the windows overlooking 14th street. There were two

almost invisible tubes coming out of his nose, attached to a portable =

small

oxygen tank on the floor. His head was raised up on a couple of big =

striped

pillows and he looked tiny and frail, thin arms with bruised veins from

hospital tests sticking out from his Jewel Heart T-shirt. Head to the =

side,

slight shadows under the eyes. I had walked through the loft, people

whispering greetings, hugging, telling me all that had happened. But =

still

not really prepared for the sight of him. The windows were open, =

curtains

waving softly. His breathing was deep, slow, very labored, a snoring =

sound.

"Hey, Allen, wake up!" Joel, his cousin and doctor, was there =

constantly,

and a young lady nurse sat in the corner reading, occasionally getting =

up to

 

heck on heart and pulse, or administer morphine for congestion. Gelek

Rinpoche said he thought Allen might last the night. Joel didn't think =

so. A

few chairs were set up nearby, and there was the big white leather =

Salvation

Army sofa of which he was so proud. People sat, or at intervals went to =

sit

beside the bed and hold his hand or whisper to him and kiss him, his =

hand or

cheek or head. An altar had been set up along one side of the loft and =

Gelek

Rinpoche and the other monks sat chanting and praying, the sound so =

soothing

constantly in the background, bells tinkling. I had a little throw-away

Woolworth's camera, and Gregory Corso asked me to take a picture of him =

with

Allen. He knelt beside the cot and placed his arm over Allen "like that

picture, or statue, of Adonais, right?" There was a medical chart, a =

picture

of the human skeleton, hanging over the bed. Bob said Allen had put it

there, half as a joke, half as a reminder. And Allen's beautiful picture =

of

Whitman gazing down from the wall at the other dear bearded poet in the =

bed

below. As it got late, many went home to try and catch a little sleep. =

It

was around 11. Bob and Pete were just playing it by ear, deciding that

anyone who wanted to stay would find a place , on the floor if =

necessary.

Peter Orlovsky was taking photos and I felt a little uncomfortable, the =

idea

of taking pictures at this time, but I figured, hey, if it was you, =

Allen'd

be the first one through the door camera in hand! Eventually, Eugene =

leaned

over, held Allen's hand, whispered "Good-bye little Allen. Good-bye =

little

Allen. I'll be back later. See you soon." He kissed him and left. And

Gregory-Gregorio-too, who told us to call him at once if there was any

change. Joel had said that there was no way to know how long it would =

be,

minutes or hours, surely not days. I had felt from the minute I saw =

Allen

there that it would be very soon. I sat at the foot of the bed where I =

had

spent the last few hours, holding his feet, rubbing them gently from =

time to

time. An occasional cigarette break- the little guest bedroom by the =

office

area was set up as the smoker's lounge. Bob and Pete and Bill were as =

strong

and remarkable as ever, supporting everyone, keeping a sense of humor, =

and

constantly dealing with the dozens of phonecalls, faxes, and the =

visitors as

they came and went. They'd had a few days for the news to sink in, but =

they

were dealing with -literally- hundreds of people over the phone or in =

person

who had just found out and were in the first stages of stunned, =

disbelieving

grief.

 

I had remained at the bedside and it was now after midnight. I could not

believe he still hung on, the breathing so difficult, the lungs slowly

filling with fluid. Those who had been there all day were exhausted. It =

was

down to a few now. Bob and Pete and Bill Morgan. Peter Orlovsky so =

bravely

dealing with his pain, strong Beverly holding his hand. David and Mark.

Patti and Oliver, there together all day trying to be brave and =

sometimes

giving way to red eyed tears. Simon Pettet sitting beside me for hours.

 

Allen's feet felt cooler than they had been earlier. I sat and thought =

of

the 33 years I'd known him, lived with him, my second father. And still =

he

breathed, but softer now.

At about 2 o'clock, everyone decided to try and get some rest. Bob and =

Joel

lay down in Allen's big bed near the cot where he lay, everyone found a =

sofa

or somewhere to stretch out.

 

Simon and I sat, just watching his face. Everyone was amazed at how

beautiful he looked-all lines of stress and age smoothed- he looked

patriarchal and strong. I had never seen him so handsome. The funny =

looking

little boy had grown into this most wonderful looking man. He would have

encouraged photos if he had known how wonderful he looked! But so tiny! =

He

seemed as fragile as a baby in his little T-shirt.

 

The loft was very quiet. Most were resting, half-asleep. Suddenly Allen

began to shake, a small convulsion wracked his body. I called out, and =

Joel

and Bob sat up and hurried over. I called louder, and everyone else came

running. It was about 2:15. Joel examined him, pulse, etc., and said =

that

his vital signs were considerably slower, he had had another seizure. =

The

breathing went on, weaker. His feet were cooler. Everyone sat or stood =

close

to the little bed, stroking and kissing him softly. Peter Orlovsky bent =

over

and kissed his head, saying, "Good-bye Darling."

 

Suddenly then a remarkable thing happened. A tremor went through him, =

and

slowly, impossibly, he began to raise his head. He weakly tried to sit =

up,

and his left arm lifted and extended. Then his eyes opened very slowly =

and

very wide. The pupils were wildly dilated. I thought I saw a look of

confusion or bewilderment. His head began to turn very slowly and his =

eyes

seemed to glance around him, gazing on each of us in turn. His eyes were =

so

deep, so dark, but Bob said that they were empty of sight. His mouth =

opened,

and we all heard as he seemed to struggle to say something, but only a =

soft

low sound, a weak "Aaah," came from him. Then his eyes began to close =

and he

sank back weakly onto the pillow. The eyes shut fully. He continued, =

then,

to struggle through a few more gasping breaths, and his mouth fell open =

in

an O. Joel said that these were the final moments, the O of the mouth =

the

sign of approaching death. I still continued to stroke his feet and thin

little legs, but the Tibetan Buddhist tradition is to not touch the body

after death, so I kissed him one final time and then let go.

 

At 2:39, Joel checked for vital signs and announced that the heart, so =

much

stronger than anyone knew, had stopped beating. A painless and gentle =

death.

The thin blue sheet was pulled up to his chin, and Peter Hale brought =

over a

tiny cup and spoon, and placed a few drops of a dark liquid between =

Allen's

lips. It was part of the Buddhist ritual-- the "last food." Bob put his =

hand

over Allen's eyes and said the Sh'ma. We all sat quietly in the dim =

light,

each with our own thoughts, saying good-bye.

 

--Rose Pettet

New York

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 01:07:37 -0400

Reply-To:     "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>

Subject:      where is gregory corso?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

hello,

        i am a new subscriber to the beat list but i've been reading beat

literature for 6 years now. My favorite is Burroughs but the rest of the

hipsters are just as good. Where is Gregory Corso? I never hear anything

about him or if he's even alive. A prof in college once took a class in

Albany where Corso was teaching. The time period was the 60s and the

faculty back then had to sign a petition about not striking or something

due to student protests. Well Gregory didn't want to sign the document

and consequently, was thrown out of the college. Just a little anecdote

for all of you.

                                                jason

"who is the other that walks beside you?"- brion gysin.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 01:05:39 -0700

Reply-To:     runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      winged victory (1997)

Comments: To: vpaul@gwdi.com

Comments: cc: agit8@hotmail.com, 102057.1047@compuserve.com, esholwitz@aol.com,

          boime@humnet.ucla.edu, bstoffma@lausd.k12.ca.us, azulado@aol.com,

          ChrisHein@aol.com, Dfroley@aol.com, double d <dbldd@hotmail.com>,

          thau@hotwired.com, eport@hto-d.usc.edu, EugeneAhn@mwp-online.com,

          gershwin@cinenet.net, Raminocs@aol.com, Jacrosby1@aol.com,

          6500ljn@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu, Marioka7@aol.com, ignatz@sirius.com,

          oktober@post.cis.smu.edu, "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@oees.com>,

          piers@humnet.ucla.edu, babel@postmodern.com, googie@wam.umd.edu,

          tpreece@pacbell.net, mpener@jcccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us

In-Reply-To:  <33D7903E.7F48@together.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

cracked looking glass

a symbol of greek art

the vodka lady Jello

no suit <<nice>> red ass

tropical berry tits

 black mass mulligans

  that laughed a lot

and said no sir pool party

and went about her merry           o-          --->

business wings extended  <-----       \

transporting out of sight               \\

 

caw  ca ca  caw

 

 

 

        <----    o    ------>

           \            /

                [   ]

                   p

                   \\

 

 

 2 sir, w/he/art

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/images/Winged_victory.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:33:51 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject:      Re: where is gregory corso?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>         A prof in college once took a class in

>Albany where Corso was teaching. The time period was the 60s and the

>faculty back then had to sign a petition about not striking or something

>due to student protests. Well Gregory didn't want to sign the document

>and consequently, was thrown out of the college. Just a little anecdote

>for all of you.

>                                                jason

 

Jason,

 

No info here on Corso other than he is alive. Just a note though: The

incident you refer to above I believe happened at SUNY Buffalo in late

60's, not Albany. Unless same happened there too.

 

Michael

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 06:40:40 -0700

Reply-To:     Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: where is gregory corso?

Comments: To: peent@SERVTECH.COM

In-Reply-To:  <v01530500630c52285d9d@[204.181.15.86]> from "Michael Czarnecki"

              at Jul 25, 97 07:33:51 am

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> No info here on Corso other than he is alive. Just a note though: The

> incident you refer to above I believe happened at SUNY Buffalo in late

> 60's, not Albany. Unless same happened there too.

 

He still wanders into downtown NY poetry events, and if he doesn't

like what he hears or disagrees with something the reader says,

he will usually say so.  This is one of the reasons poetry is

still fun in New York City.  He sometimes brings his family to

events, including his young son.

 

------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

|                                                    |

|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|     (3 years old and still running)                |

|                                                    |

|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

|                                                    |

|                *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*  |

|                                                    |

|                  "It was my dream that screwed up" |

|                                    -- Jack Kerouac |

------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:21:57 -0400

Reply-To:     Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: where is gregory corso?

In-Reply-To:  <199707251340.GAA26385@netcom.netcom.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Speaking of Corso, I've been wondering (after all the talk of Kerouac's

and Ginsberg's biography); has there been any serious biographical work

done on Gregory Corso?  Doing quick searches at our library reveals

nothing but that is far from conclusive.  If there hasn't, why not?  Why

does Corso remain (not forgotten certainly but) ignored?  I'd heard

something from someone who heard from the man himself (though highly

intoxicated at the time so possibly exaggerating) there was a book of his

collected works coming out.  Anybody know anything?  When I'd heard that I

expected a reemergence of all-things-Corso (worked for Ginsy), but nothing

yet.  An internet search brings up maybe two or three entries not at

Literay Kicks.  Sad, sad.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@acs.appstate.edu                      P.O. Box 12149

http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586          Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:25:46 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: where is gregory corso?

Comments: To: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.ULT.3.96.970725101456.10703B-100000@xx.acs.appstate.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Alex Howard wrote:

 

> Speaking of Corso, I've been wondering (after all the talk of Kerouac's

> and Ginsberg's biography); has there been any serious biographical work

> done on Gregory Corso?

 

A writer in LA was working on one about 3 years ago. I haven't heard

anything new about this since (this came up on the list sometime back).

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:48:15 -0700

Reply-To:     Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: where is gregory corso?

Comments: To: kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.ULT.3.96.970725101456.10703B-100000@xx.acs.appstate.edu>

              from "Alex Howard" at Jul 25, 97 10:21:57 am

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> Speaking of Corso, I've been wondering (after all the talk of Kerouac's

> and Ginsberg's biography); has there been any serious biographical work

> done on Gregory Corso?  Doing quick searches at our library reveals

> nothing but that is far from conclusive.  If there hasn't, why not?  Why

 

I agree!  He is one of the most interesting Beat poets, and his

life story has more than its share of drama.  There've

been biographies of Snyder, Ferlinghetti, Neal Cassady, etc. --

why not Corso?

 

One possible reason: he's notoriously unpredictable and ornery

to work with, which means a biographer would be taking on

a pretty scary task here.  Any takers here?  I bet it'd get

published, if anyone's got the guts to write it.

 

------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

|                                                    |

|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|     (3 years old and still running)                |

|                                                    |

|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

|                                                    |

|                *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*  |

|                                                    |

|                  "It was my dream that screwed up" |

|                                    -- Jack Kerouac |

------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:40:39 UT

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac (was For Chris Drummond (&D.Carter&J.Stauffer))

 

James,

 

in both hinduism and buddhism the notion, as i understand it, is that there is

nothing but now and that all things exist concurrently.  even Einstein and

later physicists have proved that time is really relative to the observer;

ergo a construct of the observer, not a law of nature.  if that is the case,

then there are no separate moments - all things exists simultaneously.

 

i'm certainly no Buddha, nor a boddhisatva, regardless of how much i would

wish to be.  but i have many, many times felt joy and despair together.

duality is the constant nature of this physical life... take a good look at

quantum theory - things are there.......     but      they're        NOT.

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James William Marshall

Sent:   Thursday, July 24, 1997 7:45 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Kerouac (was For Chris Drummond (&D.Carter&J.Stauffer))

 

(snipped like sticky bud)

> I

>want to understand why Kerouac could not ever find what he was looking

>for, at least to the point of seeing joy and despair as dualities that

>both exist in the moment, and really, the meaning of human life is in the

>moments.  How can anyone who at times writes with such gushyness about

>the joys of being alive, be stuck so on finality and loss and death?  I

>don't need to see brightness but only to understand a little more how he

>thought.  I see him as running toward and away from despair, which seems

>like an exhausting process in and of itself.

>DC

 

Diane,

  I don't know that I'd say that the "meaning of human life is in the

moments" but I recognize the "moment" as the temporal space in which one

finds joy OR despair.  I don't believe that joy and despair are "dualities

that both exist in the moment" for any one person; you sense / experience

either one or the other.  The person who can consistently experience both at

the same time is a Buddha.  Kerouac ran from despair, but it caught up with

him and he faced it.  Kerouac ran into despair simply by moving through

life.  He ran into it, he didn't run for it.  Every obsessed explorer is

doomed to exhaustion.

  Back to the beginning of what I quoted from you:  what exactly do you

think that Kerouac was looking for?  Personally, I think that he found what

he was looking for:  a measure of comfort.  And he was probably quite

pleased that they bottle it.

                                                        Just some thoughts,

                                                        James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:15:54 -0700

Reply-To:     "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Buddhism (was Re: Kerouac (was For Chris Drummond

              (&D.Carter&J.Stauffer)))

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 04:40 PM 7/25/97 UT, you wrote:

>James,

>

>in both hinduism and buddhism the notion, as i understand it, is that there is

>nothing but now and that all things exist concurrently.

 

 

I am curious.  What Buddhist teachings actually say this.  Where does it

come from?

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:35:12 -0500

Reply-To:     RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Buddhism (was Re: Kerouac (was For Chris Drummond

              (&D.Carter&J.Stauffer)))

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

>

> At 04:40 PM 7/25/97 UT, you wrote:

> >James,

> >

> >in both hinduism and buddhism the notion, as i understand it, is that there

 is

> >nothing but now and that all things exist concurrently.

>

> I am curious.  What Buddhist teachings actually say this.  Where does it

> come from?

 

It comes from the wind blowing through the trees from the flower smiling

at the world.  It is liberation from time - the confusion between

eternal and everlasting - before and forever are abstractions,

illusions.  What can exist besides the present?

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:08:47 -0400

Reply-To:     Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: where is gregory corso?

In-Reply-To:  <199707251448.HAA07386@netcom.netcom.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

speaking of mr corso, ran into this bit of history and forecasting future

clip from the man hisself

 

pot

fragment from a long poem

god dreamed pot as he dreamed the rose.

pot will moses man out of bondage.

pot is god's needle in the haystack.

those who get pricked by pot

        will have a natural ball

destiny has it that all man

        be ultimately =high stoned

                        bombed

                                Zonked!

who'll be the first to drop a joint on the

        president's lap?

Will they scream assassin?

even though he fires his security guards

        and hires narcotic guards

        he'll have to surrender to the

                heavenly arrival of POT--

a bombed president will dig food

                especially sweets

                        like never before.

when pot arrives the liquormen of the world

                will squrim & snarl & scheme

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:12:17 -0400

Reply-To:     Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Buddhism (was Re: Kerouac (was For Chris Drummond

              (&D.Carter&J.Stauffer)))

Comments: To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

In-Reply-To:  <199707251815.LAA27002@hsc.usc.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>>James,

>>

>>in both hinduism and buddhism the notion, as i understand it, is that

there is

>>nothing but now and that all things exist concurrently.

>

>

>I am curious.  What Buddhist teachings actually say this.  Where does it

>come from?

 

Timothy--I would try the Buddha's discourse on the Four Noble Truths (also

sometimes translated as the Four Holy Truths), which would be a

foundational text on the importance of present moment consciousness to

various Buddhisms.  Another source that could help would be the Heart

Sutra.  Of all the translations and commentaries, Thich Nhat Hahn's might

offer one of the better Westernized versions (with much to say on the

importance of the present moment).  Thich Nhat Hahn's commentary on the

Heart Sutra is available from Parallax Press (Berkeley), and is titled *The

Heart of Understanding*.  These aren't the only texts to go for this

question, though, and I bet others on the list could offer even better

sources.  Hope this helps.

 

Tony

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:03:18 -0700

Reply-To:     James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      Joy and Despair

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>James,

>

>in both hinduism and buddhism the notion, as i understand it, is that there is

>nothing but now and that all things exist concurrently.  even Einstein and

>later physicists have proved that time is really relative to the observer;

>ergo a construct of the observer, not a law of nature.  if that is the case,

>then there are no separate moments - all things exists simultaneously.

>

>i'm certainly no Buddha, nor a boddhisatva, regardless of how much i would

>wish to be.  but i have many, many times felt joy and despair together.

>duality is the constant nature of this physical life... take a good look at

>quantum theory - things are there.......     but      they're        NOT.

>

>ciao,

>sherri

 

Sherri,

  I think that indifference and / or confusion are words which encompass the

simultaneous feeling of joy and despair.  And the experience of emotions is

a little different than the existence of time and matter.  A metaphysician

would argue that there is no such thing as the present since it's an ever

fleeting instant; the past is memory (subjective) and the future is

speculative.  A logician would probably say that you run into problems when

you combine the propositions "all thing exist(s) simultaneously" and "things

are there.......    but   they're     NOT."  Do things exist, however small,

or is it all illusory, or perhaps a healthy combination.  As for a "constant

nature of this physical life", I'd have to say (cliched) that change is the

only one.

  And why the emphasis on duality?  Why not polyality?  If you're going to

argue for both sides of the coin, why not argue for the edges too?

 

                                                      James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:29:39 -0400

Reply-To:     MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re[2]: where is gregory corso?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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                >heavenly arrival of POT--

>a bombed president will dig food

                >especially sweets

 

                Big Mac, Filet o'Fish, Quarter Pounder, French Fries, Icy Coke,

                Big Shakes, Sundae's and apple pie!!!!!  I'm not a Clintonite,

                I'm not an anti-Clintonite...I'm a realist....before I sobered

                up I never claimed I only sniffed the cork!

 

                        >like never before.

>when pot arrives the liquormen of the world

                >will squrim & snarl & scheme

 

     Who bought LBJ that damned milk truck anyway?  Driving around drunk

     harassing the neighbors, probably held a dog out the window by its

     ears to announce his arrival.

 

     I'm back, after an e-mail disaster of epic proportions.  I have missed

     all of you and hope you will welcome me back into your loving arms.

 

     love and lilies from the foot of AG's "Rapture Mountain",

 

     matt

 



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