beat list 1997

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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:45:03 UT

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From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject: Re: something to SPIN...

Neil. thanks, haven't had a chance to read the article yet.

you point up something extremely significant in the art world: collaboration.

from painting to performance art, no one ever "does" it completely alone,

whether it be seeking and the incorporating the opinions/ideas of others of

one work in progress, or having assistance or having editors - it all comes

down to the involvement of more than one person at some point. Rembrandt's

paintings; Shakespeare's plays; Mozart's operas; many, many sculptors; the

Beatles, etc., etc. This guy must not have a long and deep experience with

art to make collaboration sound like a dirty word.

ciao,

sherri

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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:40:49 -0500

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From: John Gehner <jgehner@SIU.EDU>

Subject: INVITATION FOR SUBMISSIONS

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"A paranoid is a man who knows a little of what's going on."

--William S. Burroughs

I am currently a Sponsoring Editor at Southern Illinois University Press,

and I would like to expand our list of studies on the Beats as well as on

those artists and individuals who moved within and about their circle(s).

SIU Press has published work on the writing of Burroughs, Kerouac, and

others, and we've recently released Jenny Skerl's A TAWDRY PLACE OF

SALVATION: THE ART OF JANE BOWLES. In addition, we will release during the

Fall 1998 season a book by David Sterrit entitled MAD TO BE SAVED: THE

BEATS, THE 50s, AND FILM. We also have under consideration an examination

of Gregory Corso's writing as well as another "Beats & film" book penned by

Sterritt.

I invite individuals who are working on book-length studies of the Beats

and their work (as a "collective body" or as individual figures and

artists) to submit their projects for publication consideration, and I

would be happy to provide more information about our press--and submission

guidelines--to anyone who is interested. Simply contact me at my email

address: <jgehner@siu.edu>.

I thank everyone for considering my invitation, and I do hope you'll pass

along this message to acquaintances and colleagues beyond the reach of the

listserv.

Cordially,

John Gehner

Sponsoring Editor

Southern Illinois University Press

P.O. Box 3697

Carbondale IL 62901

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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:50:42 +0000

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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: sorry sean

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got you mixed up. please take my apologies for thee public flogging. found yr

original post, finally.

Sean Elias wrote:

> In a message dated 97-09-17 12:50:06 EDT, you write:

> << Dennis owes

> a lot to Burroughs. Cooper doesn't even have his facts

> together.

> Burroughs deserves better. >>

> I'm really disillusioned by all this,,,,,,,give it to dc where he likes it

> most, the stones said star f******, star f******, star f******, that's all

> you get, fifteen minutes......

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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:52:56 +0000

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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: sean again

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but i disagree strongly here. the man was as patricia writes of him, perhaps a

black sheep to his born family, but a paterfamilias to his chosen famiy(s).

Sean Elias wrote:

> In a message dated 97-09-16 21:32:18 EDT, you write:

> << gotta say, I was disappointed with the tone of the SPIN article >>

> a second thought...gotta say that WSB always appealed to me as the black

> sheep---the one designed for you to hate---perhaps he accomplished this too

> well........

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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:27:54 UT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject: Re: sean again

i agree marie, but sean has a point too. the black sheep connotation is no

longer simply the bad, lazy, evil family slouch. it has the appeal of the

rebel, perhaps even innovator; the person who is true to him/erself.

ciao,

sherri

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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:38:23 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac book covers

Comments: To: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>

In-Reply-To: <3421DA4C.6843@pacbell.net>

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> A local Palo Alto company is doing a series of postcard with "pulp"

> covers which are wonderful--including "Junky". The Subterr. cover fits

> right in.

> J. Stauffer

Would love to get ahold of some of these cards. You know the name of the

company producing them?

Thanks.

Jorgiana>

* You can always tell a Texan, but not much.*

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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:46:09 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Ginzy/Cornershop

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Any AG experts out there know anything about a cut from Cornershops CD

"When I Was Born for the Seventh Time" titled "When the Light Appears

Boy" cited in the notes as a poem written and performed by AG. Text

seems to be a few sampled and twisted lines about food and cooking.

Interesting.

J. Stauffer

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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:42:27 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@BUCHENROTH.COM>

Subject: Re: something to SPIN...

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=20

-----Original Message-----From: Neil Hennessy =

<nhenness@UNDERGRAD.MATH.UWATERLOO.CAWhile I do believe The Wild Boys is =

brilliant, and Naked Lunch less so, I'd like to know exactly what Mr. =

Cooper means by "before heroin addiction stunted his talent". That =

statement is patently absurd. Heroin addiction precedes Naked Lunch, and =

was extremely important in the development of the controlling metaphor =

(of Control) throughout the book. Naked Lunch was written after coming =

out the other side. If he hadn't been a junky, he wouldn't have broke =

any ground. According to what Mr. Cooper claims, Burroughs was clean as =

a whistle when writing Naked Lunch and The WildBoys, but then became a =

heroin addict to the detriment of his writing. I would like to read the =

biography he used as his source for this assessment.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=

-------

I agree =97 absolutely absurd! I had a graduate (500) level Literature =

instructor at Ohio State University tell our Contemporary American =

literature class (1950 to present), Ken Kesey hadn't yet ingested LSD or =

any hallucinogenic substance prior to writing "One Flew Over the =

Cuckoo's Nest!" Dr. Weatherford insisted, "No writer could write such =

prose while high." The quarter a prior, I had just finished Thompson's, =

"Hells Angels," "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas," and Wolf's "Electric =

Kool Aid Acid Test" which of course had sent me off into American Beat =

"On The Road" to find out more about "Speed Limit Cassady" as so many =

million of us did. (That reading was my pleasure. The class was for the =

system.) That character has caught the absolute attention and =

fascination of millions of Americans I suppose as Cassady embodies what =

we all sought or seek. Kesey and the Pranksters did too. I always =

wondered if DR Weatherford ever realized he had Amer. Lit students =

floating around in class near the ceiling, taking notes of course, not =

like Penrod Schofield floating out the window to impress pink dress =

endowed Margaret. Like Duke the dog when he restored much to mother =

nature having participated in Penrod and Sam's preliminary trial of a =

new pharmaceutical mixture, DR Weatherford puked invented bullshit and =

called it a lecture. Duke foamed at the mouth during each of the =

exhibited dry-heave gagging head and facial movements 59 times according =

to Penrod or 67 if one accepted Sam's count yet only upchucked actual =

substance just once there as he expelled Duke and Sam's experimental =

medicine. It was probably horse medicine they determined. I suppose we =

literary type folks like DR Weatherford can easily embody the story =

personally interpreted; and then present it to others that way unable to =

separate ourselves from it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=

-------

"Gimme a J! Gimme a U! Gimme an N! Gimme a K! What's that spell? =

JUNK!"=20

Gimme an F! Gimme a U! Gimme a C! Gimme a K! What's that spell?=20

-Mike Buchenroth

Neil

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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>

</HEAD>

<BODY bgColor=3D#c0c0c0><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial =

size=3D2><FONT=20

color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>

-----Original Message-----From: Neil Hennessy=20

<nhenness@UNDERGRAD.MATH.UWATERLOO.CAWhile I do believe The Wild Boys =

is=20

brilliant, and Naked Lunch less so, I'd like to know exactly what Mr. =

Cooper=20

means by "before heroin addiction stunted his talent". That =

statement=20

is patently absurd. Heroin addiction precedes Naked Lunch, and was =

extremely=20

important in the development of the controlling metaphor (of Control) =

throughout=20

the book. Naked Lunch was written after coming out the other side. If he =

hadn't=20

been a junky, he wouldn't have broke any ground. According to what Mr. =

Cooper=20

claims, Burroughs was clean as a whistle when writing Naked Lunch and =

The=20

WildBoys, but then became a heroin addict to the detriment of his =

writing. I=20

would like to read the biography he used as his source for this=20

assessment.

<HR>

I  agree — absolutely absurd! I had a =

graduate (500)=20

level Literature instructor at Ohio State University tell our =

Contemporary=20

American literature class (1950 to present), Ken Kesey hadn't yet =

ingested LSD=20

or any hallucinogenic substance prior to writing "One Flew Over the =

Cuckoo's Nest!" Dr. Weatherford insisted, "No writer could =

write such=20

prose while high." The quarter a prior, I had just finished =

Thompson's,=20

"Hells Angels," "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas," =

and Wolf's=20

"Electric Kool Aid Acid Test" which of course had sent me off =

into=20

American Beat "On The Road" to find out more about "Speed =

Limit=20

Cassady" as so many million of us did. (That reading was my =

pleasure. The=20

class was for the system.) That character has caught the absolute =

attention and=20

fascination of millions of Americans I suppose as Cassady embodies what =

we all=20

sought or seek. Kesey and the Pranksters did too. I always wondered if =

DR=20

Weatherford ever realized he had Amer. Lit students floating around in =

class=20

near the ceiling, taking notes of course, not like Penrod Schofield =

floating out=20

the window to impress pink dress endowed Margaret. Like Duke the dog =

when he=20

restored much to mother nature having participated in Penrod and Sam's=20

preliminary trial of a new pharmaceutical mixture, DR Weatherford puked =

invented=20

bullshit and called it a lecture. Duke foamed at the mouth during each =

of the=20

exhibited dry-heave gagging head and facial movements 59 times according =

to=20

Penrod or 67 if one accepted Sam's count yet only upchucked actual =

substance=20

just once there as he expelled Duke and Sam's experimental medicine. It =

was=20

probably horse medicine they determined. I suppose we literary type =

folks like=20

DR Weatherford can easily embody the story personally interpreted; and =

then=20

present it to others that way unable to separate ourselves from it.

<HR>

"Gimme a J! Gimme a U! Gimme an N! Gimme a =

K! What's=20

that spell? JUNK!"

Gimme an F! Gimme a U! Gimme a C! Gimme a K! What's that =

spell?

-Mike Buchenroth

Neil

</BODY></HTML>

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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:13:31 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Ginzy/Cornershop

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On further listening I had misidentified the Ginsberg cut from this

CD--very recognizable Allen reading a funny little thing with doggerell

like rhymes--parts would be hard to transcribe with certainty, but one

of Allan's cute young boy poems. Either written before the publication

of Selected Poems or not included. Anyone know anything about this

piece?

J. Stauffer

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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:27:10 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: october's Cover of the Month and Web Page Update!

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The Cover of the Month is now ready with a sincere thanks to Bill Gargan for

the scan. The Kerouac Quarterly Web Page has been updated as well. Please

visit us at:

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page5.html

Thank-you! Paul of TKQ...

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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:27:11 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: october's Cover of the Month and Web Page Update!

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Wonderful "Tristessa" cover.

Thanks Bill.

J. Stauffer

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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:28:32 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac book covers

In-Reply-To: <3420E817.ADE@midusa.net>

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On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, RACE --- wrote:

> MATT HANNAN wrote:

> >

> > SNIP-OROONEY The Subterraneans cover (one of my

> > favorites) looks like it should, a dime store novel--a la Junkie and

> > Queer (excellent "trashy" covers as well--and befitting it's theme.

> > Kitsch, trash, whatever you call, it was "sensational" then and it's

> > nostalgic now.

> Speaking of Dimestores, i got a paperback copy (not 1st edition) of

> Desolation Angels at Goodwill today for a dime.>

yes, one of the paperbacks which i purchased is the 1971 Bantam

_Desolation Angels_ with an introduction by Seymour Krim. Is this the one

that you have Race?

jenn thompson

> dbr

> >

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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:34:12 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac book covers

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%1997091816001692@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

> I love those trashy covers. In fact, I've sent one to Paul Maher to post on

> e Kerouac Quarterly web site. Look forward to a wonderful cover from a

British

> edition of Tristessa.

i just wanted to clarify my original message concerning the covers. i do

like them for nostalgia reasons; however, i'm wondering whether that image

hurts JK's academic standing (i can't think of another way to put this) in

the long run. sure, his books are still selling. his novels and poetry

are placed with classics in many bookstores. but what about the critics

of today. how many of his works are considered major for mid-twentieth

century fiction? sure there's always going to be a period of critical

neglect, but come on. will the beat legend ever surpass that "hooligan"

image fostered in part by those covers?

jenn thompson

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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:40:31 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970918165150.24661D-100000@devel.nacs.net>

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On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Michael Stutz wrote:

> On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Mike Rice wrote:

> > of OTR and the Beats. Having heard the story that Kerouac typed

> > the book in one sitting on a roll of toilet paper, Truman pronounced

> > the book "not writing, but typing," and that stuck for awhile.

> Was this ms. then re-typed onto sheets of "regular" paper for submission? I

> couldn't see Jack sending the original roll to publishers wrapped in brown

> paper, as those scenes in a certain nameless movie portrays.

correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't it a roll of drawing paper that JK

found in Cannastra's old loft? i think i remember reading this in _Memory

Babe_.

jenn thompson

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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:45:43 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac book covers

In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970918165350.2737c840@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>

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Mike R.:

in your message (it got too long for me to include, and i'm an idiot when

it comes to editing) you indicated that you haven't seen any of the old

tawdry covers. if that's so, the JK bio., "Angel Headed Hipster" has

prints of the old OTR paperback covers. (those resemble harlequins as

well.) anyhow, hope this info. was of some help.

jenn thompson

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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 19:41:38 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: Kerouac book covers

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.96.970919093742.107118A-100000@kitts.u.arizona. edu>

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Ciao My Friends,

i've under my eyes the cover of "Sulla strada" dated april 1967 printed

out ten years after the american edition this is the italian translation

of the Jack Kerouac's great work (Fernanda Pivano translates at

her best!), i bought the book in 1969, and...

this edition has for me a GREAT nostalgia feeling, remember of

something like a scent of autumn in an italy with great promises

and new frontiers &... & now 30 year

later...

it's wonderful to compare the today covers (1997 edition)

and the 1967... if i understand right there is an interest to

collect the OTR cover (even italian?) i'm agree to post on the web

or via email the 1967 italian cover of the "On the Road"...

please, somebody let me know,

cari saluti a tutti,

Rinaldo.

* Jack Kerouac always beats the Umberto Eco's Law of the poket

book millenium catastrophe *

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:54:54 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac book covers

Comments: To: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>

In-Reply-To: <3421DA4C.6843@pacbell.net>

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On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

> The Subterraneans cover (one of my

> > > favorites) looks like it should, a dime store novel--a la Junkie and

> > > Queer (excellent "trashy" covers as well--and befitting it's theme.

> > > Kitsch, trash, whatever you call, it was "sensational" then and it's

> > > nostalgic now.

> >

> I don't remember who was complaining about the old covers hurting the

> "seriousness" of Jack's books. I love them. Who needs serious anyway?

> A local Palo Alto company is doing a series of postcard with "pulp"

> covers which are wonderful--including "Junky". The Subterr. cover fits

> right in.

> J. Stauffer

i was complaining, or really questioning the potential damage. i love the

covers too, because as someone else pointed out the novels were, after

all, sensational; so why not have sensational covers. but i do care,

because i, and many others, have recognized the genius in jack's works

and i'd like to see the works continued to be read for generations to

come. (Like Shakespeare's works.) the only way that this will be possible

is to have Kerouac recognized on an ongoing basis in the academic realm.

sure, it's probably a very small points. the covers of 40 years ago are

probably not affecting Kerouac's status today. if not, then i say great.

nifty covers.

jenn thompson

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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:03:56 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac book covers

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Jennifer Thompson wrote

> century fiction? sure there's always going to be a period of critical

> neglect, but come on. will the beat legend ever surpass that "hooligan"

> image fostered in part by those covers?

I think it is important to remember that the paperback was a cheap form

at that time. "Quality paperbacks" were yet to come. Remember the

Beatles "Paperback Writer"--the association of all paper with pulp

except for cheap versions of classics like the Penguin series was

strong. Also, everything was marketed this way--look at old film

posters and trailers.

My informal polling also suggests that there is a sex division here.

Most males love these. We liked Jack partly for the sex drugs kicks

thing which is what those covers sell. The current covers give us the

"serious" Jack. The old covers give us the rebel--a little distorted

perhaps, but fun. You ladies love Jack as the serious, misunderstood

boy, if you had only been there to give him the love he needed! Both

views are true.

J. Stauffer

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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:26:13 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac book covers

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At 12:34 PM 9/19/97 -0500, you wrote:

>On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

>> I love those trashy covers. In fact, I've sent one to Paul Maher to post on

> th

>> e Kerouac Quarterly web site. Look forward to a wonderful cover from a

> British

>> edition of Tristessa.

>i just wanted to clarify my original message concerning the covers. i do

>like them for nostalgia reasons; however, i'm wondering whether that image

>hurts JK's academic standing (i can't think of another way to put this) in

>the long run. sure, his books are still selling. his novels and poetry

>are placed with classics in many bookstores. but what about the critics

>of today. how many of his works are considered major for mid-twentieth

>century fiction? sure there's always going to be a period of critical

>neglect, but come on. will the beat legend ever surpass that "hooligan"

>image fostered in part by those covers?

>jenn thompson

Jack Kerouac's academic standing doesn't need the help of book covers. His

work is such that it demands scholarly study because of its enigmatic and

aesthetic qualities. From the strength of the dissertations in my second

Kerouac Quarterly

only serves to prove my statements. Regards, paul...

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:10:35 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac scroll

In-Reply-To: <970919034130_-563890123@emout20.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Attila Gyenis wrote:

> Regarding what On the Road was typed on, it is said to be tracing paper, each

> section was 12 feet long, taped together. (I also heard that it was shelving

> paper). I did actually see it during the Whitney Beat show in New York, and

> it did look like tracing paper, it is slightly translucent. The first part of

> the scroll is messed up, supposedly because a dog chewed on it (I forget

> whose dog it was, must be the same one that chewed my homework). It is 120

> feet long, single space.

> Attila Gyenis

yes, i also remember reading something to the effect that a dog chewed on

it.l

jenn thompson

> In a message dated 97-09-18 17:41:37 EDT, you write

> << >> of OTR and the Beats. Having heard the story that Kerouac typed

> >> the book in one sitting on a roll of toilet paper, Truman pronounced

> >> the book "not writing, but typing," and that stuck for awhile.

> >

> >Was this ms. then re-typed onto sheets of "regular" paper for submission? I

> >couldn't see Jack sending the original roll to publishers wrapped in brown

> >paper, as those scenes in a certain nameless movie portrays.

> >

> Someone has corrected me on this. It was actually telegraph paper or an

> Associated >>

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:20:42 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac book covers

Comments: To: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>

In-Reply-To: <3422BE8C.C6F@pacbell.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, James Stauffer wrote:

> Jennifer Thompson wrote

> > century fiction? sure there's always going to be a period of critical

> > neglect, but come on. will the beat legend ever surpass that "hooligan"

> > image fostered in part by those covers?

> I think it is important to remember that the paperback was a cheap form

> at that time. "Quality paperbacks" were yet to come. Remember the

> Beatles "Paperback Writer"--the association of all paper with pulp

> except for cheap versions of classics like the Penguin series was

> strong. Also, everything was marketed this way--look at old film

> posters and trailers.

> My informal polling also suggests that there is a sex division here.

> Most males love these. We liked Jack partly for the sex drugs kicks

> thing which is what those covers sell. The current covers give us the

> "serious" Jack. The old covers give us the rebel--a little distorted

> perhaps, but fun. You ladies love Jack as the serious, misunderstood

> boy, if you had only been there to give him the love he needed! Both

> views are true.

> J. Stauffer

ok, ok. from a historical perspective---yes, the covers were necessary

for marketing. But i love jack the rebel too. before i even noticed the

literary quality of OTR (the first of his novels which i read) i

sympathized with his need to rebel, with his anti-materialistic message,

etc. But---once again i just want to see his works live on. it has

nothing to do with my gender.

jenn thompson

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:23:10 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac book covers

In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970919182613.0068b148@pop.pipeline.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

thanks paul, for finally responding to my original question. i think i

knew it in my heart, i was just feeling somewhat like an academic snob

yesterday. i apologize if i offended you or anyone else on the list with

this query.

jenn thompson

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:04:08 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject: Re[2]: Kerouac in New Yorker

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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Au contrare mon belle....

I onced published a dorm newsletter printed (via a daisywheel printer)

on toilet paper--Air Force Issue of course. The text was clean and

crisp, no smudges, etc. I even saddlestitched the finished

newsletter. Wish I'd saved some of those.

To keep this mildly on topic, has anyone ever used the New Yorker AS

toilet paper? That seems to be the current concensus among the

literati, the rag is only fit for the midden. I've only read a few

back issues lately, one interesting article by Joan Didion's husband,

other than that I can agree. I'll track down the Brinkley arts. just

for the Beat collection.

love and lilies,

matt

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

Date: 9/19/97 12:53 AM

that's correct, Jon, would be impossible to type on toilet paper anyway and

certainly would have thwarted the whole notion of being able to type

continuously without changing the paper - which was the whole point in the

first place.

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:06:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject: Re[2]: Kerouac in New Yorker

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I've got a postcard of it, been meaning to scan it and share (for

non-commercial use of course).

love and lilies,

matt

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

Date: 9/19/97 1:00 AM

the OTR role is still around, was part of the Beat Exhibition here last year,

unless i'm grievously mistaken.

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:07:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac book covers

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 01:23 PM 9/19/97 -0500, you wrote:

>thanks paul, for finally responding to my original question. i think i

>knew it in my heart, i was just feeling somewhat like an academic snob

>yesterday. i apologize if i offended you or anyone else on the list with

>this query.

>jenn thompson

> No apology needed! Yours is important as any other....I think the one

thing I am attempting to endeavor with The Kerouac Quarterly is to implement

a place where the serious study of Jack and his work can be properly

forumed. (Is that a verb? It is now...) With the intellectual snobbery so

prevalent in our hallowed halls of study it is up to us to support our hero

with the same passion he had

bestowed upon his work and his life. Not to get too serious...TKQ is there

for just good reading too! Take care, Paul...

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:25:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac book covers

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Re the tawdry covers... they weren't all like that. Some of you will have

seen the cover from my copy of the Grove edition of Subteraneans which has a

quite serious and beautiful illustration (of a bridge) by the house

illustrator/designer Roy Kuhlman. Paul Maher had it posted at his web site

of Kerouac covers. It was Kuhlman who did the famous Autobiography of

Malcolm X book cover.

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:33:23 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac book covers

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

so's mine, antoine. thank for the reminder. i have mine right in front of me.

Antoine Maloney wrote:

> Re the tawdry covers... they weren't all like that. Some of you will have

> seen the cover from my copy of the Grove edition of Subteraneans which has a

> quite serious and beautiful illustration (of a bridge) by the house

> illustrator/designer Roy Kuhlman. Paul Maher had it posted at his web site

> of Kerouac covers. It was Kuhlman who did the famous Autobiography of

> Malcolm X book cover.

> Antoine

> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

> cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:38:04 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

yikes: those stiff glossy thick pages hurt. but so does reading it, lately

inmyopin

as well

(who now reads tricycle)

MATT HANNAN wrote:

> Au contrare mon belle....

> I onced published a dorm newsletter printed (via a daisywheel printer)

> on toilet paper--Air Force Issue of course. The text was clean and

> crisp, no smudges, etc. I even saddlestitched the finished

> newsletter. Wish I'd saved some of those.

> To keep this mildly on topic, has anyone ever used the New Yorker AS

> toilet paper? That seems to be the current concensus among the

> literati, the rag is only fit for the midden. I've only read a few

> back issues lately, one interesting article by Joan Didion's husband,

> other than that I can agree. I'll track down the Brinkley arts. just

> for the Beat collection.

> love and lilies,

> matt

> ______________________________ Reply Separator

_________________________________

> Subject: Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

> Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

> Date: 9/19/97 12:53 AM

> that's correct, Jon, would be impossible to type on toilet paper anyway and

> certainly would have thwarted the whole notion of being able to type

> continuously without changing the paper - which was the whole point in the

> first place.

> ciao,

> sherri

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:19:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject: Re[2]: Kerouac book covers

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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>however, i'm wondering whether that image hurts JK's academic standing (i

can't think of another way to put this) in the long run.

<further snippage>will the beat legend ever surpass that "hooligan" image

fostered in part by those covers?

Jenn,

With a school named for one member at a "unique" university, classes

taught at probably dozens of schools, recognition from their peers and

progeny, major new issues and reissues of works, and a 250-odd member

listserv devoted to them (grin), fear not, the Beats have legitimacy.

I'd substitute "rebel" for "hooligan" and even then say "hurray for

holliganism", someone had to stand up to Ike!

love and lilies,

matt h.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:39:10 -0400

Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac scroll

Reply to message from GYENIS@AOL.COM of Fri, 19 Sep

>Regarding what On the Road was typed on, it is said to be tracing paper, each

>section was 12 feet long, taped together. (I also heard that it was shelving

>paper). I did actually see it during the Whitney Beat show in New York, and

>it did look like tracing paper, it is slightly translucent. The first part of

>the scroll is messed up, supposedly because a dog chewed on it (I forget

>whose dog it was, must be the same one that chewed my homework). It is 120

>feet long, single space.

>Attila Gyenis

wasn't it Lucien's dog? Because didn't he write OTR while living with

Lucien? Soemone did say already that Lucien got him the teletype paper.

Diane. (H)

I should have loved a thunderbird instead. --Sylvia Plath

Diane M. Homza ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:44:06 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject: backSPIN

For Beat-L consumption: Letter to the Editors, SPIN magazine:

==============================================

Subj: Spin

Date: Thu, Sep 18, 1997 7:30 PM EDT

From: [email address suppressed] (Barry Miles)

Dear SPIN:

I've just read the obituary of William Burroughs in your October issue in

which Dennis Cooper says: "It's a well-known secret that, beginning with his

1981 'comeback' novel, Cities of the Red Night, Burroughs's prose was a

product of partial ghostwriting, and that his involvement in his books

steadily diminished."

This is an absurd allegation and were Bill still alive he would, I hope, have

reacted by pursuing Cooper mercilessly through the courts. Sadly he is no

longer with us and can be libelled with impunity. I knew and worked with Bill

from 1964. I catalogued his archives, co-authored his bibliography for the

University of Virginia Press Bibliography Society, and wrote a portrait of

his life and work called El Hombre Invisible which was published in the USA

by Hyperion. In the course of my researches I read all the various drafts of

Cities of the Red Night and can assure your readers that William Burroughs

wrote every word in it.

Throughout his career Burroughs collaborated with other people on his books:

the fragmentary routines which were the genesis of The Naked Lunch were

originally edited into shape by Allen Ginsberg (that early draft was issued

as Interzone); Ian Sommerville, Michael Portman, and others are all credited

as collaborators in his sixties novels and he did several straight forward

collaborations with Brion Gysin. The confusion over Cities of the Red Night

possibly rises from the fact that the final published version differed

considerably from the draft first given to the publisher. The differences,

however, are virtually all in the editing: the final draft has different

placement and selection of material. Burroughs assembled his books from vast

piles of manuscripts and material left over from one book was often used in

the next. The Soft Machine, for instance, was rewritten three times using

different material.

If someone else wrote Burroughs later books who then does Cooper think it

was, and why wasn't this person named? Could it be that they are still alive

and might sue? It is of course an understandable career move for a young

writer to be an iconoclast and attack the status quo - even if the status quo

in his line of business is Burroughs - but this slur on Bill's work cannot go

unchallenged. At best Cooper was ill-informed and at worst he was lying.

Please let him present his sources or make a public apology.

With best wishes

Barry Miles

================================

forwarded by ddr

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:59:41 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>

Subject: Re: a little permission if you please...

it's cool with me.

i'm just gonna vote. don't need to comment.

Brian M. Kirchhoff

howl 420@juno.com

"Someone must have been telling lies about Joeseph K. for without having

done

anything wrong , two men came and arrested him this morning." -Kafka

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:24:16 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>

Subject: Re: Iowa connecting

On Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:01:17 -0400 Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

writes:

>I'm heading out for a two week reading tour of Iowa (not hitchhiking!)

>Sept. 25 through Oct. 9. 10 - 12 readings around the state. Anyone on

>the list from there? Anyone want to connect out in mid-America? I'll

send

>more info to anyone interested.

>Michael

My name is Brian Kirchhoff and I'm out in Omaha, Nebraska. Let me have

that more info you mentioned. We're right next to Iowa and all.

There's a couple others on the list here in Omaha. Something may work

out.

If you e-mail me back, copy it to: bkirchho@unomaha.edu

as i have better access to that account from home.

thanks.

Brian M. Kirchhoff

howl 420@juno.com

"Being the adventures of a man whose principle interests are

Rape, Ultra-violence and Beethoven." -A Clockwork Orange

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 17:01:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

Jorgiana and to the rest as well,

Regarding "the last time i committed suicide," Yes i've seen it and in fact i

have a copy, but I think you're mistaken about Keanu Reeves playing JK. Keanu

played a character that was simply a random friend of Neal's. In the "Joan

Anderson" letter which the movie is based on, (you can find it in The

Portable Beat Reader) Neal doesn't mention Reeves' character only his

"younger blood brother." I was curious about Keanu's role and wondered if

anyone knew who he was supposed to potray. Did the director take artistic

lisence and make up this character, or did he exist? By the way, I really

enjoyed the movie. I could be wrong, but i really hope that Keanu wasn't

playing JK, that would be a serious casting mistake. Thanks.

~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:02:15 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject: kerouac article

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Jon: I think the article you are looking for is by Jack McClintock, "This

Is How the Ride Ends: Not with a Bang, with a Damn Hernia." It appeared

in _Esquire_ (March 1970): 138-39, 188-89. Any decent (or indecent)

library should carry _Esquire_.

Cordially,

Michael Skau

9/19/97

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:07:42 UT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac book covers

i don't know about the east coast, but Jack and other Beats are taken

seriously academically, in, at least, Northern Cal. seems to me that most

academics have no choice but to acknowledge that the Beats were responsible

for much of the new writing/art/music of the last half of this century. also,

i think the fact that there have been the Beat exhibits at many first rate

museums around the country indicates that Beat lit, art are taken very

seriously.

all art forms wax and wane in popularity depending on the general state of

society; however, i think that this "genre" is being taken under a fair amount

academic consideration that should ensure that the Beats will never fall into

complete ignominy.

if you want an example to ease your mind, Bach was completely lost to

classical music for about 150 years- disdained by the few who knew of him,

simply unknown by most. it wasn't until Brahms dug him out of the anonymous

grave of artists that he began to truly be appreciated (outside of his own

period) and honored for his greatness and contributions.

as i have always thought, the "voice" of great, true art can never be

permanently silenced.

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:15:37 UT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject: Re: backSPIN

Diane,

thanks for the forward. great letter from Barry!! i wonder if/when

objectivity will return to journalism?

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 17:14:58 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>

Subject: Re: Kerouac scroll

In-Reply-To: <199709192039.QAA21582@owl.INS.CWRU.Edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>Reply to message from GYENIS@AOL.COM of Fri, 19 Sep

>>Regarding what On the Road was typed on, it is said to be tracing paper, e=

ach

>>section was 12 feet long, taped together. (I also heard that it was shelvi=

>>paper). I did actually see it during the Whitney Beat show in New York, an=

>>it did look like tracing paper, it is slightly translucent. The first part=

>>the scroll is messed up, supposedly because a dog chewed on it (I forget

>>whose dog it was, must be the same one that chewed my homework). It is 120

>>feet long, single space.

>>Attila Gyenis

>wasn't it Lucien's dog? Because didn't he write OTR while living with

>Lucien? Soemone did say already that Lucien got him the teletype paper.

Kerouac wrote OTR on Lucien's dog?????????

leo

"Let us hope that the whores of evil no longer loiter on the doorsteps of

your path, beckoning you into the brothel of despair, and that hereinafter,

you may present them with the most rigid manifestations of a firm and manly

will. Ad astra per aspera." --Jack Kerouac

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 18:46:33 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jason Newman <newman@PREMIERWEB.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

He didn't type it in one sitting and it wasn't toilet paper. I think toilet

paper, although lengthy, would be too thin. But if you've ever used any

toilet paper in a store or office building you might think different. :)

----------

> From: Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject: Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

> Date: Friday, September 19, 1997 10:40 AM

> On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Michael Stutz wrote:

> > On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Mike Rice wrote:

> >

> > > of OTR and the Beats. Having heard the story that Kerouac typed

> > > the book in one sitting on a roll of toilet paper, Truman pronounced

> > > the book "not writing, but typing," and that stuck for awhile.

> >

> > Was this ms. then re-typed onto sheets of "regular" paper for

submission? I

> > couldn't see Jack sending the original roll to publishers wrapped in

brown

> > paper, as those scenes in a certain nameless movie portrays.

> Read "Kerouac" by Charters. She tells all about it. Cool pictures

> too...although having flipped thru the web looking for info on him, it

> seems she isn't thought of very highly among fans.

> Jorgiana>

> * You can always tell a Texan, but not much.*

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:59:21 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Dufour <dufour@ULISSE.IT>

Subject: Patriots?

Comments: To: BOHEMIAN@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

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The beats were (or can be considered) someway "patriots" ?

If yes, is possible to define a sort of "way of being american" according

to JK, AG, WSB, etc. ?

Ciao !

Francesco.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 19:38:18 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jason Newman <newman@PREMIERWEB.NET>

Subject: Re: Patriots?

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Yes, absolutly! A new way of seeing, hearing, thinking, and feeling

AMERICAN and HUMAN in general.

----------

> From: Dufour <dufour@ULISSE.IT>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject: Patriots?

> Date: Friday, September 19, 1997 5:59 PM

> The beats were (or can be considered) someway "patriots" ?

> If yes, is possible to define a sort of "way of being american" according

> to JK, AG, WSB, etc. ?

> Ciao !

> Francesco.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:13:27 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject: Re: something to SPIN...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I read Naked Lunch in 1970 and think nothing of it. I

can't remember much about it, except that there was little]

in it that you could interpret let alone remember. I have

been hearing that Burroughs wrote a book called Junkie. I

am hoping he might have written it before Naked Lunch, and that

it might be autobiographical. Could someone tell me when it

was written, and, briefly, what it is about.

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:13:31 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject: Re: eric and sean

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around Indianapolis, his death was seen as one

> of those "thank God that scumbag is gone. He's corrupting my children"

> kind of deaths. His obit was in the paper (amazingly!) but all other

> media outlets ignored it.

These remarks about Burroughs' death and the effect in Indianapolis, reminded

me how few people really understand the significance of Burroughs, Ginsberg

and the Beats. My mother will be 80 in late October. Last night, I rewatched

the Ginsberg documentary and talked to her about it. She was unaware that

the Beats started a movement that released a strait jacket that was enveloping

American culture in the 40s and 50s. She did not see the post War 11 culture

in all its stultifying stupor, before the beats rolled their bowling ball

against

the stupidity of the era, and scored.., a spare. She had never considered

Elvis,

the Beats, playing Race Music, gay rights, feminism and stonewall, as

building blocks

to the free and open society we have today. The Beats talked about how awful

it was to read about the evil tide of Communism in every newspaper, about how

if any woman stepped off the trolley that was the sexual mainstream, she would

be ruined; and that the Dulles brothers brinkmanship would keep the world safe

for democracy. For a young person in that era, the underlying

assumptions of our society could be called predetermined. If you did this, you

had a chance, but if you thought along those lines, you could wind up on

skid row.

It was not an optimistic atmosphere to grow up in. It was like the Catholic

religion at the time, a catalogue of sins you had to avoid in order to be

redeemed. Even without the Beats, young people naturally hoped for something

better. And they got it.

My mother was not convinced by my talk last night. Neither would the people

of Indianapolis. Mostly, the mainstream never gets it. Thats the way it goes.

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:37:08 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject: Re: Re[2]: Kerouac in New Yorker

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 12:04 PM 9/19/97 -0400, you wrote:

> Au contrare mon belle....

> I onced published a dorm newsletter printed (via a daisywheel printer)

> on toilet paper--Air Force Issue of course. The text was clean and

> crisp, no smudges, etc. I even saddlestitched the finished

> newsletter. Wish I'd saved some of those.

> To keep this mildly on topic, has anyone ever used the New Yorker AS

> toilet paper? That seems to be the current concensus among the

> literati, the rag is only fit for the midden. I've only read a few

> back issues lately, one interesting article by Joan Didion's husband,

> other than that I can agree. I'll track down the Brinkley arts. just

> for the Beat collection.

> love and lilies,

> matt

>______________________________ Reply Separator

_________________________________

>Subject: Re: Kerouac in New Yorker

>Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

>Date: 9/19/97 12:53 AM

>that's correct, Jon, would be impossible to type on toilet paper anyway and

>certainly would have thwarted the whole notion of being able to type

>continuously without changing the paper - which was the whole point in the

>first place.

>ciao,

>sherri

And now for a few words about the New Yorker: I think it is not the magazine

it once was, but it is more accessible. In the old days you'd page thru a

whole issue and read nothing but Talk of the Town. I often read most of it

now, but will admit the depth of today's New Yorker is less than it once was.

Its still a more literate magazine than any other mass magazine in America

today. I miss the old one too, but like the new one.

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:37:14 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject: Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Of course it was supposed to be Kerouac. It wasn't much of a role,

though. It was mostly to add some Jack glamour to a film that was

100% about neal.

Mike Rice

At 05:01 PM 9/19/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Jorgiana and to the rest as well,

>Regarding "the last time i committed suicide," Yes i've seen it and in fact i

>have a copy, but I think you're mistaken about Keanu Reeves playing JK. Keanu

>played a character that was simply a random friend of Neal's. In the "Joan

>Anderson" letter which the movie is based on, (you can find it in The

>Portable Beat Reader) Neal doesn't mention Reeves' character only his

>"younger blood brother." I was curious about Keanu's role and wondered if

>anyone knew who he was supposed to potray. Did the director take artistic

>lisence and make up this character, or did he exist? By the way, I really

>enjoyed the movie. I could be wrong, but i really hope that Keanu wasn't

>playing JK, that would be a serious casting mistake. Thanks.

> ~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:37:17 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject: Re: Kerouac scroll

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 05:14 PM 9/19/97 -0500, you wrote:

>>Reply to message from GYENIS@AOL.COM of Fri, 19 Sep

>>>

>>>Regarding what On the Road was typed on, it is said to be tracing paper, each

>>>section was 12 feet long, taped together. (I also heard that it was shelving

>>>paper). I did actually see it during the Whitney Beat show in New York, and

>>>it did look like tracing paper, it is slightly translucent. The first part of

>>>the scroll is messed up, supposedly because a dog chewed on it (I forget

>>>whose dog it was, must be the same one that chewed my homework). It is 120

>>>feet long, single space.

>>>

>>>Attila Gyenis

>>wasn't it Lucien's dog? Because didn't he write OTR while living with

>>Lucien? Soemone did say already that Lucien got him the teletype paper.

>Kerouac wrote OTR on Lucien's dog?????????

>leo

>"Let us hope that the whores of evil no longer loiter on the doorsteps of

>your path, beckoning you into the brothel of despair, and that hereinafter,

>you may present them with the most rigid manifestations of a firm and manly

>will. Ad astra per aspera." --Jack Kerouac

If its going to be between Lucien's Dog and toilet paper, I prefer my

earlier idea: toilet paper.

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:17:23 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: Patriots?

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Jason Newman wrote:

> Yes, absolutly! A new way of seeing, hearing, thinking, and feeling

> AMERICAN and HUMAN in general.

I think there is a fine line involved in using the word patriot to

describe the beats. According to the dictionary, a patriot is one who

loves, is loyal to, and zealously supports his country. The attraction

of the beats is that they were outside the mainstream, and they were

horrified by the view of America that they saw rising out of their time,

the industrial giant ready and willing to use bombs that could eventually

destroy the world. I don't think that Ginsberg, Kerouac or Burroughs

loved America as it was then. They loved the vision of what America

could be. Ginsberg probably more than any of the rest believed that he

could change America and he did have an astounding influence on political

America through his efforts in peace marches and that kind of thing. He

believed that if America was not right he should do what he could to

change it. It is an interesting question to consider: Is his poem America

written with the voice of a patriot? For those of us that hear the

message and agree, it is. But I would venture that the majority of those

in mainstream America, then and now did not consider him a patriot.

Kerouac, I think, gave up on America because he could not reconcile the

way America was with the way he wanted it to be. Burroughs lived many

years of his life outside America and his voice was directed at awakening

what was wrong with American society. American society still has most of

the problems it had at the time of the beats. After all of this, I guess

my point is that they were patriots for zealously NOT supporting their

country and seeking to change it. But this view of a patriot is not the

normal one.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:19:17 UT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject: Re: Patriots?

DC wrote:

After all of this, I guess

my point is that they were patriots for zealously NOT supporting their

country and seeking to change it. But this view of a patriot is not the

normal one.

i would disagree that they didn't support their country. they simply didn't

support mainstream social ideologies and hypocritical and detrimental

political policies. i don't believe that patriotism = full agreement with the

mainstream or the political machine.

i am supporting my country by letting it know when it's wrong just as much as

i am supporting my daughter when i let her know she's doing something wrong -

my love for her is not lessened at such times, i always adore her.

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:50:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: [Fwd: Dylan influenced by Kerouac?]

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Here is an interesting post from the Dylan news group, one more to

follow.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

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Path:

Supernews69!Supernews60!supernews.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplane

t.com!su-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsgate.tandem.com!uunet!

in3.uu.net!208.206.146.5!news.velocity.net!not-for-mail

From: "Justin Mando" <jmando@velocity.net>

Newsgroups: rec.music.dylan

Subject: Dylan influenced by Kerouac?

Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:48:07 -0400

Organization: Velocity.Net

Message-ID: <5vmu9u$g6r$1@news.velocity.net>

NNTP-Posting-Host: d25.velocity.net

X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.0544.0

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Xref: Supernews69 rec.music.dylan:93781

Hello fellow Dylan listeners,

I was wondering if anyone knows if Dylan was at all influenced by Jack

Kerouac. I just finished "On The Road" and it makes me think about Dylan.

It seems his music was influenced by Kerouac or other "beat" writers such

as Ginsberg or Burroughs possibly. If anyone knows an answer to this

please let me know. Thanks. I will leave this with the coolest quote

ever.

"The only ones for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad

to talk, and mad to be saved, the ones who are desirous of everything at

the same time, the ones that never yawn or says a commonplace thing, but

burn, burn, burn like fabulous yellow Roman candles like spiders across the

stars and the blue centerlight pops and everybody goes 'Awww!'" --Jack

Kerouac

Justin Mando

jmando@velocity.net

--------------4D53CBB9962F89A3542BC91D--

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:51:10 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: [Fwd: Strumming my gay guitar]

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Hey and I thought this list might overanalyse things too much. This is

deconstructed?

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

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net!newsgate.duke.edu!godzilla1.acpub.duke.edu!mmoore

From: Mark Moore <mmoore@acpub.duke.edu>

Newsgroups: rec.music.dylan

Subject: Re: Strumming my gay guitar

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:32:46 -0400

Organization: Duke University, Durham, NC, USA

Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970918132855.25398D-100000@godzilla1.acpub.duke.edu>

References: <sscobie1-1609971108060001@p18-95.dialup.uvic.ca>

<5vrlut$gna$1@Urvile.MSUS.EDU>

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Xref: Supernews69 rec.music.dylan:93873

On 18 Sep 1997, LMS wrote:

> Playing my gay guitar, chewing on a cheap cigar.

> The cigar is phallic. Bob is obviously gay. Boy, Scobie worries a

> little too much.

He's just worried that Allen Ginsberg had a little TOO MUCH influence on

the old boy.

M.M.

--------------BA8A172DCC6C058B71738B03--

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 22:38:46 -0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Bruce W. Hartman, Jr." <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

Subject: Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

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Mike,

No, no, no. . . Reeves was not portraying Kerouac. The entire movie was

based on a letter from Neal TO Jack. . . how then would Jack be in the

movie? Why would Neal write a letter to Kerouac explaining to him the

events that he had a been a party to?

The character's name bore no resemblance to Jack Kerouac and if I recall

correctly, the character was supposed to be about ten years older than

Neal. I certainly don't claim to be a Kerouackian expert, but there's no

way that anyone should mistake the Keanu Reeves character for Jack Kerouac.

The guy had absolutely no personality, no drive for life, no gusto,

nothing but playing pool in shitty little pub. . . and his damn egg nog. .

. Jack drank wine, not egg nog.

Bruce

bwhartmanjr@iname.com

http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:35:46 -0700

Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject: Re: Patriots?

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The question that might be asked is how the word got to be used. It seems

to me that it was usurped by political power brokers to point fingers at

those who didn't follow blindly their declarations about what was good for

the country. In other words it is a term whose meaning was more often than

not, corrupted. It calls to mind MCarthyism, and other right wing orators to

"honor" those who followed orders, and to dishonor and frighten people away

from acting on their judgement.

I doubt that many intellectuals liked to call themselves Patriots. Some did

try to restore the meaning of the word to its dictionary definition, but by

and large the vast majority of the citizenry, not feeling informed enough to

decide for themselves, but instead choosing which leaders seemed more

trustworthy to follow, were afraid to show any support to people who did not

follow the leaders and were labeled unpatriotic. Many young men killed and

died in Vietnam only because they were afraid to be called unpatriotic.

There are a few "great patriots" who were able by their achievement to

transcend the power of the political and business leadership, and who were

still called patriots, but not very many. Even today I don't hear many

Vietnam war resisters being called patriots. Maybe they will have to be

dead for a long time before their courageous perspective about what the

ideals of their country really called for, will be honored. When they are no

longer relevant or a real threat in setting an example to citizens not to

follow orders that leadership declares to be for the good of the country. My

country right or wrong is is usually the call of patriotism. Patriotism as a

banner call has been losing ground as citizens are getting better access to

information.

-----Original Message-----

From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Friday, September 19, 1997 6:33 PM

Subject: Re: Patriots?

>DC wrote:

> After all of this, I guess

>my point is that they were patriots for zealously NOT supporting their

>country and seeking to change it. But this view of a patriot is not the

>normal one.

>i would disagree that they didn't support their country. they simply

didn't

>support mainstream social ideologies and hypocritical and detrimental

>political policies. i don't believe that patriotism = full agreement with

the

>mainstream or the political machine.

>i am supporting my country by letting it know when it's wrong just as much

>i am supporting my daughter when i let her know she's doing something

wrong -

>my love for her is not lessened at such times, i always adore her.

>ciao,

>sherri

>.-

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:13:51 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jason Newman <newman@PREMIERWEB.NET>

Subject: Re: Patriots?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

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No, you're correct, it is a very unconventional use of the word patriot. I

think the "beats" were very unconventional, but I think what the beats did

was help us see the beautiful country we live in--and show us the ugly

parts that are just as much a part of America as the pretty ones. They

presented, in my opinion, a very American thing, i.e., the emotional

landscapes of America as well as the geographical ones. They seemed very

idealistic, aware of their surroundings, the people, things; alert to their

feelings, senses, and their feelings. All this seems very American to me.

After all, American Patriotism was first born out of rebellion, wasn't it?

So yes, they don't seem to be a prototype for patriotism as we know it

today, they have a very true patriotic sense, and history, about them.

----------

> From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject: Re: Patriots?

> Date: Friday, September 19, 1997 11:17 AM

> Jason Newman wrote:

> >

> > Yes, absolutly! A new way of seeing, hearing, thinking, and feeling

> > AMERICAN and HUMAN in general.

> I think there is a fine line involved in using the word patriot to

> describe the beats. According to the dictionary, a patriot is one who

> loves, is loyal to, and zealously supports his country. The attraction

> of the beats is that they were outside the mainstream, and they were

> horrified by the view of America that they saw rising out of their time,

> the industrial giant ready and willing to use bombs that could eventually

> destroy the world. I don't think that Ginsberg, Kerouac or Burroughs

> loved America as it was then. They loved the vision of what America

> could be. Ginsberg probably more than any of the rest believed that he

> could change America and he did have an astounding influence on political

> America through his efforts in peace marches and that kind of thing. He

> believed that if America was not right he should do what he could to

> change it. It is an interesting question to consider: Is his poem America

> written with the voice of a patriot? For those of us that hear the

> message and agree, it is. But I would venture that the majority of those

> in mainstream America, then and now did not consider him a patriot.

> Kerouac, I think, gave up on America because he could not reconcile the

> way America was with the way he wanted it to be. Burroughs lived many

> years of his life outside America and his voice was directed at awakening

> what was wrong with American society. American society still has most of

> the problems it had at the time of the beats. After all of this, I guess

> my point is that they were patriots for zealously NOT supporting their

> country and seeking to change it. But this view of a patriot is not the

> normal one.

> DC

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:09:44 -0700

Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject: Re: MoonFestival

MIME-Version: 1.0

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This may be a trivial point, but I do feel that there is here an issue that

is important. Reminds me of when I was put in jail because a leader of a

church declared us a public nuisance because we wre playing rock and roll

loudly. In fact none of the people who lived in the neighborhood objected,

and we never played when the church had any functions going on, but they

thought that it was a rowdy thing to do. We actually were quite inspired by

the full voiced sounds of our music.

I know you are not calling my howling at the moon a public nuisance, and

probably mean no offense, but since you do feel it enough to suggest that

the moon dislikes howling, and prefers your waving shyly, you are kind of

suggesting that my attitudes are disrespectful and not quite acceptable.

My feeling for howling at the moon comes from childhood days when I heard

the wolves beautiful howls in our neighboring forests. The moon didn't seem

to mind at all, or blush, and I still remember the acknowledgment that

filled the vast forests with a haunting beauty. Nor do I believe that anyone

got moon deafness from howling at the moon.

In fact I thought when group around a bonfire on the beach began howling

that it was quite a beautiful thing. I even tried to imagine groups around

the globe doing it. Would omming be more acceptable to you? I would not like

to disturb you or anyone, but there are plenty of places where our full

throttled sound can do wonders for us.

I have no objections to your preferences as a suitor of the spirit that you

imagine the moon prefers.

You should be carefull about hurting your eyes though.

I believe that Yan's poetic idea is not only a very beautiful one, but that

it is also a very powerful one. Its power is especially in us everywhere

expressing our harmonious feelings in the huge variety of ways that we find

congenial to ourselves, not in judging our understanding to be more correct

than that of others.

Leon

-----Original Message-----

From: Michael R. Brown <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Wednesday, September 17, 1997 8:38 PM

Subject: Re: MoonFestival

>On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Leon Tabory wrote:

>> Howling at the moon

>The moon is a quiet spirit.

>Must get tired of all that howling.

>I wave, shyly.

>Once I looked through the telescope eyepiece so long

>I got moon blindness.

>+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

> Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com

>+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

> o o

> o The electrical depths of personality o

> o o

>.-

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:42:03 -0700

Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject: Re: Patriots?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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-----Original Message-----

From: Jason Newman <newman@PREMIERWEB.NET>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Friday, September 19, 1997 9:30 PM

Subject: Re: Patriots?

. They

>presented, in my opinion, a very American thing,

No questions about it in my mind. I do believe that what is good for

humanity is good for America. I thought we were discussing the applicability

of some terms and what their meaning was. For exmple I don't think that the

Unamercan Activities Committee quite agreed with you. and if you were around

in the days when that American Committee wielded it 's awesome power, or if

you know about it from reading history books, you would agree that the power

behind that politically defined term, was not quite following the ideals

that American means to you.

leon

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 22:08:28 -0700

Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject: Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Hi Bruce,

I agree with you, excpet for one thing. The movie may have been based upon

the letter, but it sure took off on its own ways after that. The entire

movie was not quite faithful to the letter, or its spirit even.

leon

-----Original Message-----

From: Bruce W. Hartman, Jr. <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Friday, September 19, 1997 7:37 PM

Subject: Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

>Mike,

> No, no, no. . . Reeves was not portraying Kerouac. The entire

movie was

>based on a letter from Neal TO Jack. . . how then would Jack be in the

>movie? Why would Neal write a letter to Kerouac explaining to him the

>events that he had a been a party to?

> The character's name bore no resemblance to Jack Kerouac and if I

recall

>correctly, the character was supposed to be about ten years older than

>Neal. I certainly don't claim to be a Kerouackian expert, but there's no

>way that anyone should mistake the Keanu Reeves character for Jack Kerouac.

> The guy had absolutely no personality, no drive for life, no gusto,

>nothing but playing pool in shitty little pub. . . and his damn egg nog. .

>. Jack drank wine, not egg nog.

>Bruce

>bwhartmanjr@iname.com

>http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

>.-

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:51:42 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: [Fwd: Strumming my gay guitar] ...and Stephen Scobie

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Bentz,

If that reference to a quote attributed to Scobie is from Stephen

Scobie's "Alias Bob Dylan" you can immediately and completely discount it as

utter, total rubbish; one of the biggest waste of time books I ever tried to

read. Kept waiting for the content and finally gave up!?!

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:53:49 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: Jason and Jerry Newman

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Jason,

Any relation to the great jazz recordist, Jerry Newman? He was a

friend of Jack Kerouac's and recorded extensively in the important pre-bop

and bebop clubs of Harlem.

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:31:03 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Eric Macy <rodmacy@IQUEST.NET>

Subject: Re: something to SPIN...

MIME-Version: 1.0

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I think you missed the point of my post about the feelings toward

Burroughs in Indianapolis. When I brought up Burroughs' death to my

parents, my family and any acquaintances - even some strangers - their

reaction was either indignant or in the manner of a passing fancy at

Burroughs' death. It was a feeling of "Good riddance" that I

encountered. I admit my complicity in promoting this strain of virus by

not trying to comprehend Burroughs' work, but I certainly do not feel he

had an ill effect on the community or anything like that - like those

who revile him around me do. For proof, I had a man stop me in a

bookstore the other day after noticing I was perusing "The Yage

Letters." He asked me how I read "That Burroughs crap." That's what I

encounter, and that's what I report from my neck of the woods.

I don't happen to agree with that public opinion and spend many hours

trying to cut through to the core of his work - albeit unsuccessfully.

That's where I stand.

Eric Macy

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 02:22:28 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject: Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 10:38 PM 9/19/97 -0000, you wrote:

>Mike,

> No, no, no. . . Reeves was not portraying Kerouac. The entire

movie was

>based on a letter from Neal TO Jack. . . how then would Jack be in the

>movie? Why would Neal write a letter to Kerouac explaining to him the

>events that he had a been a party to?

> The character's name bore no resemblance to Jack Kerouac and if I

recall

>correctly, the character was supposed to be about ten years older than

>Neal. I certainly don't claim to be a Kerouackian expert, but there's no

>way that anyone should mistake the Keanu Reeves character for Jack Kerouac.

> The guy had absolutely no personality, no drive for life, no gusto,

>nothing but playing pool in shitty little pub. . . and his damn egg nog. .

>. Jack drank wine, not egg nog.

>Bruce

>bwhartmanjr@iname.com

>http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

Was Neal called Neal? I don't remember, and I don't really care

what anyone was called, and I don't care if the letter was

based on a letter Jack wrote, though it is not my sense that

the letter was from Jack. I know what the film was about, it

was mostly about Neal, but it was sprinkled with a little manque

Jack. As for the covering of the Keanu character. They can't use

a Jack character without the permission of the Heirs. Cassady is

so little known by mainstream folks that they would HAVE TO HAVE

a more recognized member of the Beats to even put this story on

the screen. That member is Kerouac, and Reeves plays him, just as

a little seasoning in a story about Neal.

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:27:14 -0700

Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject: Re: something to SPIN...

MIME-Version: 1.0

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-----Original Message-----

From: Eric Macy <rodmacy@IQUEST.NET>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Friday, September 19, 1997 11:10 PM

Subject: Re: something to SPIN...

You stand on very firm ground as far as I can tell. Apparently you respect

enough those of us who appreciate his work,and I admire your continuing

attempts. I wonder if any for examples, regarding some problems that you

experience reading Burroughs, might not bring out some very useful pointers

from our list. Might be worth a try

leon

>I don't happen to agree with that public opinion and spend many hours

>trying to cut through to the core of his work - albeit unsuccessfully.

>That's where I stand.

>Eric Macy

>.-

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 02:34:37 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jason Newman <newman@PREMIERWEB.NET>

Subject: Re: Jason and Jerry Newman

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Hi, Antoine. No, sorry, I don't think I'm any kin to Jerry. (smile) But, I

am a DISTANT cousin of Paul Newman. My father and him grew up in Augusta,

Georgia. I live in Savannah, GA. now. I've never met Paul though. (smile)

----------

> From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject: Re: Jason and Jerry Newman

> Date: Saturday, September 20, 1997 12:53 AM

> Hi Jason,

> Any relation to the great jazz recordist, Jerry Newman? He was a

> friend of Jack Kerouac's and recorded extensively in the important

pre-bop

> and bebop clubs of Harlem.

> Antoine

> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never

> cease to be amused."

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:28:34 +0000

Reply-To: letabor@cruzio.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments: Authenticated sender is <letabor@mail.cruzio.com>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject: Re: Death stalking around my door/long/true/personal

Hi Bentz,

Seems like I have returned to my old ways of being a weekend beatnik.

It is good to see all the support, and real understanding that is

reaching out from our list. I also have seen quite a lot of people

dying all around me at one time in my life. That was very very long

ago and in a situation that lasted four years I have experienced and

seen much adjustment to it. One of my ways of dealing with it ended

up by realizing that we are all here for a very short time, we will

leave the scene in no time, even if we stretch it a bit more or

less.Never any reason not to enjoy it as much as we can or feel

responsible for the others who depend on us. Still it is difficult for us to

lose people we are close to,

and it does pull us away for awhile from being too intensely involved

in our immediate entanglements. I have also seen how easy it is for

difficulties to wear more heavily upon our shoulders. By and latge

though I feel that my life has been much more mature, in my judgement

of it, having to incorporate lives that were close and gone from the

scene into my considerations of my own life. I hope that the

burdensome feelings are easing upon you.

What I want to tell you about is the fact that I too was a bad guy,

locked up on death row of the big house in Columbia South Carolina,

for four months before trial, and then I was for twenty one or

twenty-three months, I don't remember exactly anymore, this was

between 1970 and 1973 or 1974, in the hole. Actually I dont think I

was such a bad guy at all, my offense was in teaming up with the

Rastafarians in Jamaica who wanted to storm Babylon with Ganja. I was

caught sitting in a U-Haul truck that contained a ton of Marijuana in

Beaufort South Carolina. That made me public enemy number one in

South Carolina at that time. We wre in a community here in Santa Cruz

County and got the idea to buy a piece of land that we had our eyes

on. I got to watch it because there are so many digressions that can

carry me off on side trips.

What I want to tell you about is that on death row one day

through a duct by the naked lamp a stick pushed through with a note

taped to it. It was from my neighbor from the other side of the cell

block. He was asking for a cigarette. For the time that I was there

he was the only fellow convict that I had regular communication with.

He was there for having killed two young hippie type girls. His

defense was that he was under the influence of acid. That put my

world on notice big time. Especially since I had just received in the

mail glued on a greeting card several doses of window panes. I can

tell about that now because this method of smuggling acid into the

prisons has been discovered long, long ago. It turned out that it was

not true, he had killed before, and this was the best defense that he could

come up with in those hysterical

times. Maybe it is not all that much in common, still I can relate to

having known a murderer in the big house in Columbia, South Carolina.

I am doing just fine. All these experiences were very tough to live

through, but have left me stronger rather than weaker in time.

We live and learn from death and life.

Best wishes

leon

Leon Tabory

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:17:59 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject: Re: MoonFestival

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Leon wrote:

> This may be a trivial point, but I do feel that there is here an issue that

>is important. Reminds me of when I was put in jail because a leader of a

>church declared us a public nuisance because we wre playing rock and roll

>loudly. In fact none of the people who lived in the neighborhood objected,

>and we never played when the church had any functions going on, but they

>thought that it was a rowdy thing to do. We actually were quite inspired by

>the full voiced sounds of our music.

>I know you are not calling my howling at the moon a public nuisance, and

>probably mean no offense, but since you do feel it enough to suggest that

>the moon dislikes howling, and prefers your waving shyly, you are kind of

>suggesting that my attitudes are disrespectful and not quite acceptable.

>My feeling for howling at the moon comes from childhood days when I heard

>the wolves beautiful howls in our neighboring forests. The moon didn't seem

>to mind at all, or blush, and I still remember the acknowledgment that

>filled the vast forests with a haunting beauty. Nor do I believe that anyone

>got moon deafness from howling at the moon.

>In fact I thought when group around a bonfire on the beach began howling

>that it was quite a beautiful thing. I even tried to imagine groups around

>the globe doing it. Would omming be more acceptable to you? I would not like

>to disturb you or anyone, but there are plenty of places where our full

>throttled sound can do wonders for us.

>I have no objections to your preferences as a suitor of the spirit that you

>imagine the moon prefers.

>You should be carefull about hurting your eyes though.

>I believe that Yan's poetic idea is not only a very beautiful one, but that

>it is also a very powerful one. Its power is especially in us everywhere

>expressing our harmonious feelings in the huge variety of ways that we find

>congenial to ourselves, not in judging our understanding to be more correct

>than that of others.

>Leon

>>On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, Leon Tabory wrote:

>>> Howling at the moon

>>The moon is a quiet spirit.

>>Must get tired of all that howling.

>>I wave, shyly.

>>Once I looked through the telescope eyepiece so long

>>I got moon blindness.

>> Michael R. Brown

10 years ago I wrote:

"His Response To Questions Eternal"

With food settling in the stomach

wine bottles draining low

conversation turned toward religion

questions of why we were here.

He filled his glass

left friends inside

walked out under the stars

saw Scorpio hanging low over the bog

turned westward

then howled at the waxing moon.

>From the chapbook "Drinking Wine, Chanting Poems"

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:27:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg (was Re: something to SPI

Dear Sean,

Interesting that you spotted the last lines left out of the Selected Poems

version. It was intended, just bad proof-reading and in later printings it

should be corrected. Too bad because its one of his best later poems.

Yours,

Bill Morgan

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 17:52:32 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Magda de Cristofaro.

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.96.970919093742.107118A-100000@kitts.u.arizona. edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Cari beats,

excuse me,

in previous post i've made a mistake asserting that Fernanda

Pivano translated in italian "On The Road", instead she wrote

the foreword.

The italian translator of Jack Kerouac's "On the Road" ("Sulla strada")

is Magda de Cristofaro (1959).

She translated a lot of JK's works, i enumerate:

"On the Road"(1957) -> "Sulla strada" (1959)

"The Dharma Bums" (1958) -> "I Vagabondi del Dharma" (1961)

"Doctor Sax" (1959) -> "Il dottor Sax" (1968)

"Visions of Gerard" (1963) -> "Visioni di Gerard" (1980)

"Desolation Angels" (1965) -> "Angeli di desolazione" (1983)

thanks

Rinaldo. * not a qualified beat *

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 17:56:04 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: (fwd) La Loca.

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.3.96.970919093742.107118A-100000@kitts.u.arizona. edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Return-Path: <dschwarm@sun1.lib.uci.edu>

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:46:08 -0700 (PDT)

From: David Schwarm <dschwarm@sun1.lib.uci.edu>

To: Rinaldo Rasa <rasa@gpnet.it>

Subject: Re: La Loca

> someone has notice of the beat poetess La Loca,

Hey! Yeah, what happened to La Loca?

I remember a reading of hers I attended in 1989 in Santa Monica that was

totally fantastic. She had just published her collection for city lights

_Adventures on the Isle of Adolescence_ (pocket poets series no 46) -

and she read the entire thing, cover to cover. When she got to the final

lines of 'The Mayan' a friggen riot practically broke out! People jumping

around screaming, clapping wildly, total mayhem...Fantastic stuff:

and from that day to this

although I've had to serve

in many prisons

I'm free

beneath the world

in love.

I still can hear these lines! Is she still doing readings?

-*-

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 12:41:35 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: howling at the moon

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i'll howl with you anytime, leon.

i love the sound of wolves coyotes, all howling in synchonicity, howl

questions howl answers

howl with allen, how to allen's spirit in the moon.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 12:55:24 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bob Whiteley <ai763@HWCN.ORG>

Subject: Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

Comments: To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970920011531.26f78836@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

In regards to the Keanu Reeves portrayal in "the last time I committed

suicide" there are two scenes which make me think the Keanu character is

not Jack Kerouac. I saw the film a while ago so please forgive me for not

remembering certain names. The first reason came when he was offered a

job while he was eating dinner with his girlfriend(the one who tried to

commit suicide. I don't remember the character's name but the actress is

Claire Forlani.) and her two friends. When the man offered the job to

Neal he asked how old Neal was. His response should give a definite time

line. Neal first met Jack in 1946 in New York. I think the movie was

suppose to take place either in 1944 or 1945. The second reason is when

the Keanu character and Neal are at a bar drinking and the Keanu character

is trying to persuade Neal to call "cherry Mary" Once again the subject

of age is brought up and I think Neal said the Keanu character was

thirty-three. Although I don't think the Jack was portrayed in this film

I do think the director/writer did use his artistic license in trying to

make Keanu "Kerouacesque" as much as possible, just as he did with the

character who shared a suit with Neal. That character was closer to Allen

Ginsberg than Keanu Reeves was to Kerouac.

Warmest Regards,

Bob Whiteley

On Sat, 20 Sep 1997, Mike Rice wrote:

> At 10:38 PM 9/19/97 -0000, you wrote:

> >Mike,

> >

> > No, no, no. . . Reeves was not portraying Kerouac. The entire

> movie was

> >based on a letter from Neal TO Jack. . . how then would Jack be in the

> >movie? Why would Neal write a letter to Kerouac explaining to him the

> >events that he had a been a party to?

> > The character's name bore no resemblance to Jack Kerouac and if I

> recall

> >correctly, the character was supposed to be about ten years older than

> >Neal. I certainly don't claim to be a Kerouackian expert, but there's no

> >way that anyone should mistake the Keanu Reeves character for Jack Kerouac.

> > The guy had absolutely no personality, no drive for life, no gusto,

> >nothing but playing pool in shitty little pub. . . and his damn egg nog. .

> >. Jack drank wine, not egg nog.

> >

> >Bruce

> >bwhartmanjr@iname.com

> >http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

> >

> Was Neal called Neal? I don't remember, and I don't really care

> what anyone was called, and I don't care if the letter was

> based on a letter Jack wrote, though it is not my sense that

> the letter was from Jack. I know what the film was about, it

> was mostly about Neal, but it was sprinkled with a little manque

> Jack. As for the covering of the Keanu character. They can't use

> a Jack character without the permission of the Heirs. Cassady is

> so little known by mainstream folks that they would HAVE TO HAVE

> a more recognized member of the Beats to even put this story on

> the screen. That member is Kerouac, and Reeves plays him, just as

> a little seasoning in a story about Neal.

> Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:11:41 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: something to SPIN...

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

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thanks, eric i needed the claification. words out of context via computer

are often the beginnings of misunderstandings so easily clarified in real

time/life face to face discussions.'

Eric Macy wrote:

> I think you missed the point of my post about the feelings toward

> Burroughs in Indianapolis. When I brought up Burroughs' death to my

> parents, my family and any acquaintances - even some strangers - their

> reaction was either indignant or in the manner of a passing fancy at

> Burroughs' death. It was a feeling of "Good riddance" that I

> encountered. I admit my complicity in promoting this strain of virus by

> not trying to comprehend Burroughs' work, but I certainly do not feel he

> had an ill effect on the community or anything like that - like those

> who revile him around me do. For proof, I had a man stop me in a

> bookstore the other day after noticing I was perusing "The Yage

> Letters." He asked me how I read "That Burroughs crap." That's what I

> encounter, and that's what I report from my neck of the woods.

> I don't happen to agree with that public opinion and spend many hours

> trying to cut through to the core of his work - albeit unsuccessfully.

> That's where I stand.

> Eric Macy

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Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:55:57 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg

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> Mike Rice wrote: