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Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:01:27 +0100
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From: "Marcos L. Chavarri"
<mlopez@EUROPAMC.COM>
Subject: Was Burroghs really a killer?
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Or it
was simply an accident.
I say
it for the dead of his wife...
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Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:30:21 -0500
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From: Tyson Ouellette
<Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization:
University of Maine
Subject: Re: Was Burroghs really a killer?
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>Or
it was simply an accident.
>I
say it for the dead of his wife...
accident. despite bill being the most
morbid/dark/goth/borgesian/whathaveyou
of the beat trinity, he wasn't
one
that was out to harm anyone. very
private, living in general
seclusion
most of his life, not making a lot of noise, just wanted to
be left
to do his thing. why would he purposely
kill the one woman who
meant
something to him sexually and spiritually?
no, bill was
inherently
meek, joan's death was an accident.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:37:47 -0500
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From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: generation x
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>
Agreed, completely with your comment Tyson. However, I see the whole tag
>
"GenX" as nothing more than the media's constant insatiable urge to
>
categorize.
The
media? There have been generational
lables and categories long
before. The media didn't lable the Beats as
"The Beat Generation", the
Beats
themselves did. Neither for the Lost
Generation as well. Also,
there
are powerful, powerful arguements for gernerational study. A great,
brilliant
book called _Generations_ talks about their cyclical nature,
makes
interesting and valid comparisons, and sheds a lot of light on how
society
and age-categorized groups effect each other.
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
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Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:55:59 -0500
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From: Eric Craig Sapp
<ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: free goofballs
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hey,
could you cite that quote.
thanks
>
> "...and a . . . nurse, giving me
a sleeping pill, says I can't sleep
because
> of
a guilty conscience concerning the...Church; of course I can sleep, I want
>
free goofballs; of course I'm guilty, I'm after knowledge not
salvation..."
>
Jack Kerouac
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Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:47:35 -0600
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From: Patricia Elliott
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Subject: Re: Was Burroghs really a killer?
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Tyson
Ouellette wrote:
>
>
>Or it was simply an accident.
>
>I say it for the dead of his wife...
>
> accident. despite bill being the most
>
morbid/dark/goth/borgesian/whathaveyou of the beat trinity, he wasn't
>
one that was out to harm anyone. very
private, living in general
>
seclusion most of his life, not making a lot of noise, just wanted to
> be
left to do his thing. why would he
purposely kill the one woman who
>
meant something to him sexually and spiritually? no, bill was
>
inherently meek, joan's death was an accident.
i would
agree whole heartedly with this. I
would also strongly urge
anyone
who hasn't read the preface to Queer, where he addresses the
subject,
to do so. Incredibly moving and graphical baring. He was
remarkable
in many ways. When i first met william
about 20 years ago, i
was
touched by his true kindmess and caring, many people told me that he
hated
women, and those people simply weren't near him..I was near and
close
to him. Knowing him i could quess what
it was that led this man
to that
moment and it was complex, something about obsession with
explosions
and of moments, bone deep curiousity, alcohol, and i say
curiousity
and experimentation . He loved movement
and action. He was
lost in
that moment of accidental time but i never felt that it was
anything
but an accident. I also felt he loved
her. I found him
incredibly
unprejudiced in intelectual exchange with me, in ways that
many of
my male acquiantance never have reached. He was more than
unprejudiced
about women, he could discern the unacademic intellect, and
appreciate
it. Strangly enough that tragedy
probably saved him, he
faced
what had happend and while i would not go so far as to say he
forgave
himself he seemed to have found himself, enough to write some of
the
best things about life i had ever read. . Of all most anyone i ever
knew he
was not prejudiced. well he was't crazy
about the english
social
structure.
p
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Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:31:43 -0600
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From: Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>
Subject: another Kerouac?
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I believe an interesting question was
posed a few days a go on the
list. Will there ever be another Jack
Kerouac? Hmmm...I think literature
as a
popular art form in America has really lost it's place, so i would
argue
that although there certainly may be someone with Jack's talent,
they
would not be elevated to Jack's status.
I think the poet/writer has
been
replaced by the rock star/actor. Film
and music have replaced
literature
as America's art form. Jim Morrisson
could be seen as the
succession
to the Beats. The rock star (popular poet) replaced the
traditional
poet. Maybe the Beats were a bridge
between music and
literature. They were definitely into spoken word and
performance.
Ginsberg
wrote songs, so did McClure, so did Jack.
Are there any popular writers out
there now
to
rival the popularity of the Beats? Were
the Beats even that popular?
Was
Jack known EVERYWHERE he went like movie stars are today? Even during
the
Beats time, literature was being replaced by music--Elvis. It seems
to me
that Hemingway and Fitzgerald were BIG in the thirties/forties,
maybe
the most popular artists in the US (not big on history personally,
anyone
want to disagree with this statement?).
Even in their days, film
was
getting bigger and bigger.
Back to my original question: Is it possible in America today for
one
writer (or small group of writers) to set the nation on fire like Jack
and co.
did? I don't believe so. There is almost too much talent around,
and
there's not too many more barriers to cross so there is no spotlight
waiting
for a single writer. Has avant-guarde
literature lost its place
in
America? and now all the intelligent
young writers end up writing
screen
plays or songs? i hope not.
-matt
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:16:11 -0800
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From: James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>
Subject: Re: another Kerouac?
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well, i
have a few issues here.
first,
dont look for another jack kerouac.
dont even
think
about it. not because the type of poet
he was
was
unique, but because he was not a prophet, and we
are not
waiting for the second coming. in other
words,
if he comes, he will come.
second,
i dont entirely agree with your notions of
american
avant-guard poetry. in many ways, its
all
avant-guard
(some of it too post-modern for its own
good, i
think). but you ignore a major class of
writers
- the essayists. many of todays finest
essayists
have the grace and style of a poet, the
mastery
of language of a novelist, and are also a very
unpopular
class of artists in todays pop-literary
world. read the essays. a good start into them are
the
best american essays collections, but by no means
stop
there. (remember, kerouac also wrote
essays,
which
you can read in good blonde and others.)
third,
dont stop at rock stars, but also consider folk
artists,
such as edie brickell, and also check out
rusted
root (funk/folk band...very poetic, and some
even
say beat, in a sense).
finally,
dont sweat the loss of kerouac. one of
the
beauties
of a great artists, thinker, and
metaphysician
is the fact that he cant be follwed up
on -
that he had something so unique as to always
remain
with us, as did chaucer, blake, whitman, eliot,
and
others who continue to wonder, amaze, and educate
us. (and in this list i include pynchon, who has
the
same
singular genius found in all great writers - and
if you
havent read him, do so - start w/ the crying of
lot 49,
and then tackle gravitys rainbow...it will be
well
worth the effort.)
in all,
i dont find it an interesting question.
love
kerouac
for what he did, not for what we may come to
expect
from future writers.
peace,
love, and good happiness stuff...
On Thu,
6 Nov 1997, Matthew S Sackmann wrote:
> I believe an interesting question was
posed a few days a go on the
>
list. Will there ever be another Jack
Kerouac? Hmmm...I think literature
> as
a popular art form in America has really lost it's place, so i would
> argue
that although there certainly may be someone with Jack's talent,
>
they would not be elevated to Jack's status.
I think the poet/writer has
>
been replaced by the rock star/actor.
Film and music have replaced
>
literature as America's art form. Jim
Morrisson could be seen as the
>
succession to the Beats. The rock star (popular poet) replaced the
>
traditional poet. Maybe the Beats were
a bridge between music and
>
literature. They were definitely into
spoken word and performance.
>
Ginsberg wrote songs, so did McClure, so did Jack.
>
> Are there any popular writers out
there now
> to
rival the popularity of the Beats? Were
the Beats even that popular?
>
Was Jack known EVERYWHERE he went like movie stars are today? Even during
>
the Beats time, literature was being replaced by music--Elvis. It seems
> to
me that Hemingway and Fitzgerald were BIG in the thirties/forties,
>
maybe the most popular artists in the US (not big on history personally,
>
anyone want to disagree with this statement?).
Even in their days, film
>
was getting bigger and bigger.
>
> Back to my original question: Is it possible in America today for
>
one writer (or small group of writers) to set the nation on fire like Jack
>
and co. did? I don't believe so. There is almost too much talent around,
>
and there's not too many more barriers to cross so there is no spotlight
>
waiting for a single writer. Has
avant-guarde literature lost its place
> in
America? and now all the intelligent young
writers end up writing
>
screen plays or songs? i hope not.
>
>
-matt
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:28:27 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: hi
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hi
didja
ever walk down the streets
of your
neighborhood
with
ears wide open,
quiet
quietly
and
hear the two guys up the hill arguing,
as
usual, over whose fielstone wall is best
the
sounds of wet leaves dry leaves
squishy
and crackling
tugging
at your nostrils to open just a bit more
to
inhale
to
savor
this
autumnal fragrance
didya
just stop
and
shut
your eyes and all movement
and
surfed the autumnal audio waves?
moms
talking to toddlers wafting out of windows
still
open to the night breeze
birds
land on branches, branches creaking
the
noise your feet make on the cement gritty sidwalk
a
mufller problem
that to
date had been just a part of my white noise
up here
in my apartment
suddently
becomes a
particular
muffler patter
easily
distinguished
real
car, real driver, real muffler problem,
don=92t
look
you
know that car, it lives two houses over
the
noises of living:
geese
in formation overhead
smaller
hardier winter northland birds
cheeping
and
there up overhead, squirrels
squabble
as i scribble
hey you
guys, have any of you ever done that ?
...........anyone?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:32:51 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: yet again
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Autumn insominiac Quartet
DAY
FOUR
IN SOMNIA
for the fourth day
in the fourth year
up here in north country
each autumn
i dwell in the land of
in Somnia.
in Somnia,
the rules change:
clocks run backwards
as
fast as ahead
and collide,
like two perfectly balanced arrows
two exquistely aimed arrorws
meeting in mid flight -
time
collapses.
i=92ve tried
doctors
pills!
special pillows
herbal remedies
warm milk!
relaxation, meditation
chants!
(and furtive readings from the =91self
help=92
corner of local bookstore )
hell,
i=92ve even taken to ale again
as my corner store is a
redemption center!
redemption through ales!
they=92ve told me they miss my bottles,
and my pockets of change for
replacements
(hell,
i think when abstinent,
they preyed for my redemption!)
but,
nothing changes.
Until, 72 hours into
black night slowly
inching its way to dawn,
i look out my window
and
see the first snow fall
of autumn.
i take this as an omen
i take this as a vision
i take this as a balm,
and i thank the winds of change :
with same disease as allen
cooking in my body
at times quiescent,
other times raging,
a life line without guarrentee
a reminder of mortality,
i
suspect the gods are smiling on me
giving me more time
to store up against an early death
so charged,
writing always becomes electric,
a force of its own :
vowels
consonants
metaphors
voices
ring in my head,
so i spend time with poets
who would rather
stay dead:
Woolfe, Sexton, Plath
(i=92ve often wondered if i=92d follow
your path),
or that of ti Jean,
Kerouac :
it=92s a critical mass:
one can drown in water, or in wine,
nothing sublime about that.
is it an affliction,
these extra hours,
dark, quiet, soft snow falling
or gift?
(these extra hours
dark, quiet, soft snow falling)
i wonder in the dark, quiet, snow
falling
hours as the horizon point is touched
by flame
i=92m still awake
when daybreak changes snow to rain
snow washed away
in to the rain
i=92m still awake
i=92m still awake
i=92m still awake
~~~~~~~~~~~~
1993
lately i just keep waking
lately i just keep waking alone
in the black of night
i breathe shallow i wear earphones
not to wake you
not to
wake you
i breathe shallowly
3 am 4 am
mind wanders and stumbles
stuck in the valley of consciousness
black timelessness,
i don=92t
think of tomorrow, rather
merge with the blackness
listen to the burning
fire
in my ears, break free --the
passions bursts! in my ears,
and turning,
turn up the volume on the
sobbing stereo wailing
i make my choice
light the candle
shed my
clothes
twirl on the balls of my
feet and let
my hips find their own rhythm
scarf in hand,
flung swirls, settles
the lamp shadows cast,
i dance to my anima,
shadow cast
i ride the fiddles
in the midst of hurricane
a halcyon dance.
go away if it bothers you, in fact
please go away.
its the blackness you see
the blackness and me
everybody nobody knows about me
nobody everybody
knows about me
the song
the vigil
blackness
energy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
III
DAY
FIVE
dance
in camplight
all others ringed round the fire asleep
i steal the ceiling of stars, sleepless,
needing a
blanket round shoulders
i sit and bend towards fire
sweat raises on shoulders
firelight warmth
sudden gust of cold, then icy fire:
he appears
my wolf, my angst, my chosen delusion
if you will, my metaphor
and the firelight
turns to music
sweat raises to shoulders
and muscles obey
running electric alive currents!
(to all casual eyes
i dance alone in the desert)
oh please,
oh please,
- hear me hear out my story-
because you were in it
alive
you
alive
you
who are you
who are you
my
adversary?
my brother?
my killer?
life giver?
who?
and with all these questions burning in my
brain
you can
see why i then crave i sleep
this question
hounds me
leading me round in circles
to dream on
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NIGHT
SEVEN
in dreamless nights
in dreams, i remember flying over the old
spartan homelands
-the freedom
-the altitiude
-my shadow cast on the hillscapes-
feathers
delineated in shadow shapes
windspread wide and proud.
i no longer dream of flying,
i no longer dream at all.
(I hail from the country of In Somnia
I=92m only here to gather some
ingredients:
bane of darkness
wort of light
bones of a robin)
[the condescending smile of an eye
as i beg for help,
condescending incomprehending eye]
so rejected,
i choose to stop such public presentations
i choose to live here in my palace,
peopled by imagination.
who is to say which is which?
corporeal or ethereal?
laid awake for so many of my days
the return to the land of sleep
and the
company of sleepers
an
impossiblity
i pray
for the dreamweavers
where i
lie, invisible to the naked i
and
yet.
and
yet-
i see
you coming in the darkness, dreamweaver
i see you pick up this paper, blessed by
tears and torn
by desperations,
i see you pick it up, it feels good, oh
yes it does, so pliable,
feel me,
i=92m in your pocket
i=92m here;
you awaken....
oct. 24-30, 1997
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:40:06 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: hi
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Marie
Countryman wrote:
>=20
> hi
>=20
>
didja ever walk down the streets
> of
your neighborhood
>
with ears wide open,
>
quiet quietly
>=20
>
and hear the two guys up the hill arguing,
> as
usual, over whose fielstone wall is best
>
the sounds of wet leaves dry leaves
>
squishy and crackling
>
tugging at your nostrils to open just a bit more
> to
inhale
> to
savor
>
this autumnal fragrance
>
didya just stop
>
and
>
shut your eyes and all movement
>
and surfed the autumnal audio waves?
>
moms talking to toddlers wafting out of windows
>
still open to the night breeze
>
birds land on branches, branches creaking
>
the noise your feet make on the cement gritty sidwalk
>=20
> a
mufller problem
>
that to date had been just a part of my white noise
> up
here in my apartment
>
suddently becomes a
>
particular muffler patter
>
easily distinguished
>=20
>
real car, real driver, real muffler problem,
>
don=92t look
>=20
>
you know that car, it lives two houses over
>=20
>
the noises of living:
>
geese in formation overhead
>
smaller hardier winter northland birds
>
cheeping
>
and there up overhead, squirrels
>
squabble as i scribble
>
hey you guys, have any of you ever done that ?
>
...........anyone?
i have
now. thanks a lot marie.....
david
rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:52:52 +0000
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: whoops
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sent
the old version. many apologies.
Autumn insominiac Quartet
DAY
FOUR
IN
SOMNIA
for the fourth day
in the fourth year
up here in north country
each autumn
i dwell in the land of
in Somnia.
in Somnia,
the rules change:
clocks run backwards
as
fast as ahead
and collide,
like two perfectly balanced arrows
two exquistely aimed arrorws
meeting in mid flight -
time
collapses.
i=92ve tried
doctors
pills!
special pillows
herbal remedies
warm milk!
relaxation, meditation
chants!
(and furtive readings from the =91self
help=92
corner of local bookstore )
nothing changes.
except, fifty two hours into
black night slowly
inching its way to dawn,
i look out my window
and
see the first snow fall
of autumn.
i take this as an omen:
for
with same disease as allen
cooking in my body
at times quiescent,
other times raging,
a life line without guarrentee
a reminder of mortality,
i
suspect the gods are smiling on me
giving me more time
to store up against an early death
so charged,
writing always becomes electric,
a force of its own :
vowels
consonants
metaphors
voices
ring in my head,
so i spend time with poets
who would rather
stay dead:
Woolfe, Sexton, Plath
(i=92ve often wondered if i=92d follow
your path),
or that of ti Jean,
Kerouac :
it=92s a critical mass:
one can drown in water, or in wine,
nothing sublime about that.
is it an affliction,
these extra hours,
dark, quiet, soft snow falling
or gift?
(these extra hours
dark, quiet, soft snow falling)
i wonder in the dark, quiet, snow
falling
hours as the horizon point is touched
by flame
i=92m still awake
when daybreak changes snow to rain
snow washed away
in to the rain
i=92m still awake
i=92m still awake
i=92m still awake
~~~~~~~~~~~~
1993
lately i just keep waking
lately i just keep waking alone
in the black of night
i breathe shallow i wear earphones
not to wake you
not to
wake you
i breathe shallowly
3 am 4 am
mind wanders and stumbles
stuck in the valley of consciousness
black timelessness,
i don=92t
think of tomorrow, rather
merge with the blackness
listen to the burning
fire
in my ears, break free --the
passions bursts! in my ears,
and turning,
turn up the volume on the
sobbing stereo wailing
i make my choice
light the candle
shed my
clothes
twirl on the balls of my
feet and let
my hips find their own rhythm
scarf in hand,
flung swirls, settles
the lamp shadows cast,
i dance to my anima,
shadow cast
i ride the fiddles
in the midst of hurricane
a halcyon dance.
go away if it bothers you, in fact
please go away.
its the blackness you see
the blackness and me
everybody nobody knows about me
nobody everybody
knows about me
the song
the vigil
blackness
energy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
III
DAY
FIVE
dance
in camplight
all others ringed round the fire asleep
i steal the ceiling of stars, sleepless,
cold
and needing a blanket around my shoulders,
i sit and bend towards fire
sweat raises on shoulders
firelight warmth
sudden gust of cold, then icy fire:
he appears
my wolf, my angst, my chosen delusion
if you will, my metaphor
and the firelight
turns to music
sweat raises to shoulders
and muscles obey
running electric alive currents!
(to all casual eyes
i dance alone in the desert)
oh please,
oh please,
- hear me hear out my story-
because you were in it
alive
you
alive
you
who are you
who are you
my
adversary?
my brother?
my killer?
life giver?
who?
and with all these questions burning in my
brain
you can
see why i then crave i sleep
this question
hounds me
leading me round in circles
to dream on
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NIGHT
SEVEN
in dreamless nights
in dreams, i remember flying over the old
spartan homelands
-the freedom
-the altitiude
-my shadow cast on the hillscapes-
feathers
delineated in shadow shapes
windspread wide and proud.
i no longer dream of flying,
i no longer dream at all.
(I hail from the country of In Somnia
I=92m only here to gather some
ingredients:
bane of darkness
wort of light
bones of a robin)
[the condescending smile of an eye
as i beg for help,
condescending incomprehending eye]
so rejected,
i choose to stop such public presentations
i choose to live here in my palace,
peopled by imagination.
who is to say which is which?
corporeal or ethereal?
laid awake for so many of my days
the return to the land of sleep
and the
company of sleepers
an
impossiblity
i pray
for the dreamweavers
where i
lie, invisible to the naked i
and
yet.
and
yet-
i see
you coming in the darkness, dreamweaver
i see you pick up this paper, blessed by
tears and torn
by desperations,
i see you pick it up, it feels good, oh
yes it does, so pliable,
feel me,
i=92m in your pocket
i=92m here;
you awaken....
oct. 24-30, 1997
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:15:05 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Wrong is so final
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Wrong
is so Final in the World Wide Web
Wrong
is so final in the World Wide Web,
Wrong
timing, wrong file attached, wrong version,
Wrong
key, wrong button, wrong address,
And it
is gone forever into flame bait world.
Gone
forever into newbie world.
Gone
forever into cyber space, with
A hint
of red on our cyber space.
It is
like a tounge at a party,
A word
you wish to overtake and eat
Before
any ear it should ever meet.
A
something that is from your head,
And you
wish it could return,
And it
does,
Just
not in the way you had planned.
Cyber
space is so final,
Especially
when it is the
Wrong
button, the wrong file, or the wrong poem.
Hey,
don't worry about it,
It
happens to us all.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:02:57 PST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Was Burroghs really a killer?
Content-Type:
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Patricia
You are
such a gem. I am not speaking of your poetry right now. I am
speaking
of how you give definition to the word true friend. A true
friend
is not one who would overlook and color in things to make the
friend
look "better". A true friend loves their friend enough to know
them as
much as only a true friend can, and accepts them for what they
are. A
true friend can explain a person better than any objectified
scholarship
tries to do. A true friend wants to explain their friends to
others
who would like to know more about them in a way that they come
out of
the shadows of various possibilities. So many of the questions
that
seem to linger after explanations by remote scholarly
interpretations
are finally fully answered by the integrity and true
friendship
that you share with us.
Your
true friendship enlightens us about the wonderful human being
William
S. Burroughs was and the mistakes that he made in living his
very
human life. With your help I know him better too.
leon
>From:
Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
>Subject: Re: Was Burroghs really a killer?
>To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>Tyson
Ouellette wrote:
>>
>>
>Or it was simply an accident.
>>
>I say it for the dead of his wife...
>>
>> accident. despite bill being the most
>>
morbid/dark/goth/borgesian/whathaveyou of the beat trinity, he wasn't
>>
one that was out to harm anyone. very
private, living in general
>>
seclusion most of his life, not making a lot of noise, just wanted to
>>
be left to do his thing. why would he
purposely kill the one woman
who
>>
meant something to him sexually and spiritually? no, bill was
>>
inherently meek, joan's death was an accident.
>
>i
would agree whole heartedly with this.
I would also strongly urge
>anyone
who hasn't read the preface to Queer, where he addresses the
>subject,
to do so. Incredibly moving and graphical baring. He was
>remarkable
in many ways. When i first met william
about 20 years ago,
i
>was
touched by his true kindmess and caring, many people told me that
he
>hated
women, and those people simply weren't near him..I was near and
>close
to him. Knowing him i could quess what
it was that led this man
>to
that moment and it was complex, something about obsession with
>explosions
and of moments, bone deep curiousity, alcohol, and i say
>curiousity
and experimentation . He loved movement
and action. He was
>lost
in that moment of accidental time but i never felt that it was
>anything
but an accident. I also felt he loved
her. I found him
>incredibly
unprejudiced in intelectual exchange with me, in ways that
>many
of my male acquiantance never have reached. He was more than
>unprejudiced
about women, he could discern the unacademic intellect,
and
>appreciate
it. Strangly enough that tragedy
probably saved him, he
>faced
what had happend and while i would not go so far as to say he
>forgave
himself he seemed to have found himself, enough to write some
of
>the
best things about life i had ever read. . Of all most anyone i ever
>knew
he was not prejudiced. well he was't
crazy about the english
>social
structure.
>p
>.-
>
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 00:36:24 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Was Burroghs really a killer?
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Leon
Tabory wrote:
>
>
Patricia
>
>
You are such a gem. I am not speaking of your poetry right now. I am
>
speaking of how you give definition to the word true friend. A true
>
friend is not one who would overlook and color in things to make the
>
friend look "better". A true friend loves their friend enough to know
>
them as much as only a true friend can, and accepts them for what they
>
are. A true friend can explain a person better than any objectified
>
scholarship tries to do. A true friend wants to explain their friends to
Leon,
thank you for your words, it does give me an excuse to say, in
many
ways i have no business answering what william felt. I did know
him but
he had many friends, closer and for
longer than me. I am more
than an
imperfect recorder of even my impressions.
And i don't think i
should
be so free with my impressions and feelings as i have been. I
mean
this, i think it took about a tenth of williams attention to keep
up a
conversation with me. I know I honestly
loved him and I know he
honestly
cared for me, but I am not sure that i saw much more than the
iceberg.
the part i did see was fascinating and consistant. I am sure
of a
few things, and just as sure i am wrong about some of the things i
am sure
about.
gosh
that was fun.
good
night.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 02:57:23 -0500
Reply-To: dh383@freenet.carleton.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Laurie Fuhr
<dh383@FREENET.CARLETON.CA>
Subject: In Somnia..
Ah!
I've been to that land, in fact I'm in Somnia right now and
having
just read only the second List since i joined.. wow. I'm going to
have to
stick around. All the poetry I've read
has been fantastic, and
the
discussions are interesting, and the personal stories.. wow. You guys
have a
good thing going here, and I'm glad to be a part of it. I'm
learning
already :)
So I'd like to ask this question, just
to get my bearings, because
I have
a few stagnant misconceptions about Beat and want to see how you
guys
feel.
Is the Beat Movement over? I mean, the Calaberos have passed
on,
their literature is timeless in itself, but.. are we, by studying it
and
writing our own beat-inspired pieces and talking about it carrying the
movement
forward on a much smaller scale? Or is
this all just a history
discussion? The poetry I've read makes me wonder. There are probably
many
and varied answers to this question, but..
What
say youse?
Laurie.
:)
"feathers
hit the ground before the weight can leave the air buy the sky
and
sell the sky and teach the sky and tell the sky don't fall on me.."
--the
R.E.M. song currently playing on tv..
--
* R e c
o v e r i n g * "..she said,
* -= t
h e =- *
'I don't need to be an angel, but I'm
* S a t
e l l i t e s * n o t h i n g
* *
counting crows * * if I'm not this high.."
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:18:31 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Marcos L. Chavarri"
<mlopez@EUROPAMC.COM>
Subject: Be-Bop: music of the beats
Comments:
cc: jvega%EUROPAM@europamc.com
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I think
that we are wrong if we try to imitate the way of life of the b=
eats
through
the music.
I think
that generation X and the grunge is shit. Because first was the=
grunge
and then was the generation X.
I think
that beat generation was a crew of guys who fought by their dre=
ams
as we
do. And music is the support to help us.
I think
that I got a problem bacause I don=B4t have music to help my li=
fe
come
true.
Can
somebody help me?
Marcos
L. Ch=E1varri
=
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 07:41:32 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Be-Bop: music of the beats
In-Reply-To:
<C1256548.002BAEEE.00@europamc-web1.europamc.com>
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On the
contrary. Music was very prevalent in the whole Beat Movement and
I'm not
even talking about Bob Dylan. Kerouac was very into jazz blues,
Charlie
Parker and all those people. Ginsberg made his own music with that
thingie
he had....( Sorry..I dont know what its called and Ive never
actually
seen it. My mom told me about it.) Music is everywhere and in
everything.
On Fri,
7 Nov 1997, Marcos L. Chavarri wrote:
> I
think that we are wrong if we try to imitate the way of life of the bea=
ts
>
through the music.
> I
think that generation X and the grunge is shit. Because first was the
>
grunge and then was the generation X.
> I
think that beat generation was a crew of guys who fought by their dream=
s
> as
we do. And music is the support to help us.
> I
think that I got a problem bacause I don=B4t have music to help my life
>
come true.
>
Can somebody help me?
>
Marcos L. Ch=E1varri
>=20
The Absence
of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 07:57:33 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Was Burroghs really a killer?
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thanks
to leon for saying what he said about what you said. patricia in the
last
few months, wsb has become 'william' in a very human and real way. no
shadows
in your posts.
mc
Leon
Tabory wrote:
>
Patricia
>
>
You are such a gem. I am not speaking of your poetry right now. I am
>
speaking of how you give definition to the word true friend. A true
>
friend is not one who would overlook and color in things to make the
>
friend look "better". A true friend loves their friend enough to know
>
them as much as only a true friend can, and accepts them for what they
>
are. A true friend can explain a person better than any objectified
>
scholarship tries to do. A true friend wants to explain their friends to
>
others who would like to know more about them in a way that they come
>
out of the shadows of various possibilities. So many of the questions
>
that seem to linger after explanations by remote scholarly
>
interpretations are finally fully answered by the integrity and true
>
friendship that you share with us.
>
Your true friendship enlightens us about the wonderful human being
>
William S. Burroughs was and the mistakes that he made in living his
>
very human life. With your help I know him better too.
>
>
leon
>
>
>From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
>
>Subject: Re: Was Burroghs
really a killer?
>
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>
>
>Tyson Ouellette wrote:
>
>>
>
>> >Or it was simply an accident.
>
>> >I say it for the dead of his wife...
>
>>
>
>> accident. despite bill being the most
>
>> morbid/dark/goth/borgesian/whathaveyou of the beat trinity, he wasn't
>
>> one that was out to harm anyone.
very private, living in general
>
>> seclusion most of his life, not making a lot of noise, just wanted to
>
>> be left to do his thing. why
would he purposely kill the one woman
>
who
>
>> meant something to him sexually and spiritually? no, bill was
>
>> inherently meek, joan's death was an accident.
>
>
>
>i would agree whole heartedly with this.
I would also strongly urge
>
>anyone who hasn't read the preface to Queer, where he addresses the
>
>subject, to do so. Incredibly moving and graphical baring. He was
>
>remarkable in many ways. When i
first met william about 20 years ago,
> i
>
>was touched by his true kindmess and caring, many people told me that
> he
>
>hated women, and those people simply weren't near him..I was near and
>
>close to him. Knowing him i could
quess what it was that led this man
>
>to that moment and it was complex, something about obsession with
>
>explosions and of moments, bone deep curiousity, alcohol, and i say
>
>curiousity and experimentation . He
loved movement and action. He was
>
>lost in that moment of accidental time but i never felt that it was
>
>anything but an accident. I also
felt he loved her. I found him
>
>incredibly unprejudiced in intelectual exchange with me, in ways that
>
>many of my male acquiantance never have reached. He was more than
>
>unprejudiced about women, he could discern the unacademic intellect,
>
and
>
>appreciate it. Strangly enough that
tragedy probably saved him, he
>
>faced what had happend and while i would not go so far as to say he
>
>forgave himself he seemed to have found himself, enough to write some
> of
>
>the best things about life i had ever read. . Of all most anyone i ever
>
>knew he was not prejudiced. well he
was't crazy about the english
>
>social structure.
>
>p
>
>.-
>
>
>
>
______________________________________________________
>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:53:43 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Be-Bop: music of the beats
In-Reply-To:
<C1256548.002BAEEE.00@europamc-web1.europamc.com>
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At
09:18 AM 11/7/97 +0100, you wrote:
>I
think that we are wrong if we try to imitate the way of life of the beats
>through
the music.
>I
think that generation X and the grunge is shit. Because first was the
>grunge
and then was the generation X.
>I
think that beat generation was a crew of guys who fought by their dreams
>as
we do. And music is the support to help us.
>I
think that I got a problem bacause I don=B4t have music to help my life
>come
true.
>Can
somebody help me?
>Marcos
L. Ch=E1varri
>
Yeah, grunge is (was, actually, I
think that whole mess is finally over)
shit. I
personally am a big fan of Be-bop, and it's one of few forms of
music
that I can relate to. What do you mean by you don't "have music to
help
your life come true?" De donde escribes, Marcos? Hablas Espa=F1ol? --Sa=
ra
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:26:55 -0500
Reply-To: Neil Hennessy
<nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Neil Hennessy
<nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Burroughs and killing
MIME-Version:
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Patricia
is right about two things:
1) The
intro to Queer is THE best source for Burroughs' feelings about
Joan's
death, and from a literary point of view, for his motivations for
writing
("I am forced to the appalling conclusion that were it not for
Joans'
death I would never have become a writer"). In addition to this I
would
suggest the pretty comprehensive account of the incident in Ted
Morgan's
_Literary Outlaw_. He records several eyewitness accounts, and
some of
them are so strikingly different that they seem to be describing
different
incidents. Ah, how the capricious memory
2) The
mysoginy in his work did not extend to his personal life. See
"Women
are a Biological Mistake" from _The Adding Machine_; however I'll
laugh
heartily at any claim that Burroughs' writing isn't mysoginous.
As for
the accounts of friends, the book I'm anxiously awaiting, although
who
knows if it'll ever be written, is James Grauerholz's "Life with
WSB"
book. I have no idea if he plans to write any memoirs, but I'd
love to
read them if he does. Besides, James is a pretty interesting guy
himself.
Cheers,
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:31:21 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: MARK NOFERI
<NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Subject: Gen X
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Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:03:31 -0500
From: "L.W. Deal"
<RoadSide6@AOL.COM>
Subject:
Re: generation x
In a
message dated 97-11-05 19:50:26 EST, Tyson writes:
<< I think that, in this discussion, there
is a misconception about
what gen x is. it's not the young generation now, it isn't defined by
age; gen x is more an "attitude,"
an inability to categorize oneself
within any one generational tendency. dig what i'm saying? that's why
it's gen X, x is the unknown variable in a
manner of speaking. That
sound right?
>>
Agreed,
completely with your comment Tyson. However, I see the whole tag
"GenX"
as nothing more than the media's constant insatiable urge to
categorize....
I dunno, the whole thing bores me all to hell.
The term Gen X
comes
originally not from Coupland's book but rather, 'twas the name of a
rather
energetic (and quite good for its time) band headed by none other than
that
snarling blondie Billy Idol -- hehe.
Let's all rent "Reality Bites" and
see our
so-called lives lived out before us by those foxes Ethan Hawke &
Winona
Ryder <wink wink>
Blah
blah blah...
I
couldn't agree more, blah blah blah. More accurately, not only is Gen x a
complete media characterization, but it's
propagated
by all those folks who work in advertising firms and need some catch
phrase to sell their ideas to their
clients.
It's one thing to say "we think this ad campaign will connect with the
young people..."; it's another to say
"we
think
this campaign will really attract that Generation X Market!" Ding! Ding!
Bells and whistles!
A
cynical voice,
Mark
Noferi
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 18:35:41 -0800
Reply-To: balkose@egenet.com.tr
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Murat Balkose
<balkose@EGENET.COM.TR>
Subject:
Re: Be-Bop: music of the beats
MIME-Version:
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Marcos
L.Chavarri wrote such thing like this:
> I
think that we are wrong if we try to imitate the way of life of the b=
eats
>
through the music.
> I
think that generation X and the grunge is shit. Because first was the
>
grunge and then was the generation X.
> I
think that beat generation was a crew of guys who fought by their dre=
ams
> as
we do. And music is the support to help us.
> I
think that I got a problem bacause I don=B4t have music to help my li=
fe
>
come true.
>
Can somebody help me?
>
Marcos L. Ch=E1varri
Marcos.I can't help you anyway & i am not
sorry!
Your connection between grunge and gen-x is
very funny!!I listen some
grunge
and i know what i am listening:
a
mosquito,my libido, yay , yay , a denial , I'm worse at what I do best
and for
this gift i feel blessed, i found it hard , it was hard to find,
oh
well, whatever , NEVERMIND..
Bye,
Murat.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:01:40 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "L.W. Deal"
<RoadSide6@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: free goofballs
In a
message dated 97-11-07 01:21:19 EST, you write:
<<
hey, could you cite that quote.
thanks
>>
You
know, off the top o' my head, I can't. It was in a letter from Jack to
Burroughs
methinks, somewhere in the midst of the SELECTED LETTERS 1940-1956.
Time
constraints are keeping me from looking it up --- packing for a trip to
Tucson
AZ in the mornin'.
I'll be
back on Weds & I'll post the exact
context, letter date, etc.
Starfishes
to all & to all a good weekend.
L
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:13:46 -0500
Reply-To: Neil Hennessy
<nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Neil Hennessy
<nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: my comments on Patricia's posts
MIME-Version:
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hallo,
I've
gotten private e-mail that leads me to believe that some people read
my post
as a negative criticism of Patricia's posts. I don't mean them to
be read
that way at all. I enjoy her thoughts and recollections of
friendship
with WSB immensely. In my post I was just pointing people to
some
other sources, especially writing by Burroughs himself, where they
could
find the information. The desire to see a Grauerholz memoir is in no
way a
slight of Patricia's writings either.
Ah, but
as our good friend Derrida tells us
"Every
reading is a misreading."
Cheers,
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:25:36 -0500
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From: "L.W. Deal"
<RoadSide6@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: generation x
In a
message dated 97-11-06 23:36:33 EST, you write:
<<
The media?
There have been generational lables and categories long
before.
The media didn't lable the Beats as "The Beat Generation", the
Beats themselves did. Neither for the Lost Generation as
well. Also,
there are powerful, powerful arguements for
gernerational study. A great,
brilliant book called _Generations_ talks
about their cyclical nature,
makes interesting and valid comparisons, and
sheds a lot of light on how
society and age-categorized groups effect
each other.
>>
While,
yes, there is a cyclical nature to it all, I still think that the
media
has taken the tag of "X" and run w/ it to ridiculous levels. They've
turned
a supposed generational "attitude" into (an often humorous) parody.
As
far as
the Beats & the media are concerned, if I remember correctly, Jack had
some problems with the tag "Beat
Generation." And I believe the hype was
media-induced
to some extent... But I'm pulling on old, faded postcards of
memory
in the back of my somewhat soggy brain. I could be wrong.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:26:18 -0500
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From: Tyson Ouellette
<Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization:
University of Maine
Subject: Re: another Kerouac?
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> Back to my original question: Is it possible in America today for
>one
writer (or small group of writers) to set the nation on fire like
>Jack
>and
co. did? I don't believe so. There is almost too much talent
>around,
>and
there's not too many more barriers to cross so there is no spotlight
>waiting
for a single writer. Has avant-guarde
literature lost its place
>in
America? and now all the intelligent
young writers end up writing
>screen
plays or songs? i hope not.
no, it can happen and it will... just
wait a while. the main
deterent
i see is the volume of books published within ay given year
now. the market is saturated, especially with a
new small press
popping
up every day. the advent of mass
instant communication is also
an
obstacle, people feel less of a need to communalize through books
because
phones, email, internet, television is everywhere all the time;
while
present in the 50's it was much less constant, it's achieved fad
status
now. it's an obvious logical
progression, but at the same time
i think
we'll see that the very things responsible for this process
will
reverse it, or rather elevate it to a new level of isolation.
lonliness
is the key word of our time, everyone is displaced, lost.. i
foresee
a resurgence of existenial attitudes.
it seems too that lit
isn't
as highly regarded among as many groups as before, evident in
Barnes
and Nobles, and Borders stores everywhere; they cater to the
subculture
of book lovers, which is the target group for publication
now. I wonder if anyone feels like i do when i
see the large amounts
of
books out there that are just redundant, or cater to a
sensationalized
topic. Or for instance Lee Ann Rhymes (spelling?) has
a new
fiction out, she's 15, it probably never would've been published
had she
not been famous already and, hence, extremely marketable. Now,
i
haven't read it, but i saw her talk about it on letterman, and my
hunch
was that she doesn't know the first thing about writing... anyone
looked
at this book?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:30:12 -0500
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From: Tyson Ouellette
<Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization:
University of Maine
Subject: Re: another Kerouac?
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>well,
i have a few issues here.
>first,
dont look for another jack kerouac.
dont even
>think
about it. not because the type of poet
he was
>was
unique, but because he was not a prophet, and we
>are
not waiting for the second coming. in
other
>words,
if he comes, he will come.
hmmm... interesting. i myself have always elevated jack to
boddhissatvahood..
to pure beautiful spiritual magical essence.
am i
wrong?
i dunno.. opinions on perceptions of
writers anyone?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:44:21 -0700
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From: Jorgiana S Jake <jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: another Kerouac?
In-Reply-To:
<msg1188533.thr-903e6534.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>
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>
>
sensationalized topic. Or for instance Lee Ann Rhymes (spelling?) has
> a
new fiction out, she's 15, it probably never would've been published
>
had she not been famous already and, hence, extremely marketable. Now,
> i
haven't read it, but i saw her talk about it on letterman, and my
>
hunch was that she doesn't know the first thing about writing... anyone
>
looked at this book?
>
One
word, folks...
SCARED.
Jorgiana
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:56:38 -0800
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: another Kerouac?
Mime-Version:
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At
01:44 PM 11/7/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>>
sensationalized topic. Or for instance Lee Ann Rhymes (spelling?) has
>>
a new fiction out, she's 15, it probably never would've been published
>>
had she not been famous already and, hence, extremely marketable. Now,
>>
i haven't read it, but i saw her talk about it on letterman, and my
>>
hunch was that she doesn't know the first thing about writing... anyone
>>
looked at this book?
>>
>One
word, folks...
>
>
>SCARED.
>
>
>Jorgiana
>
>
But...
do
books like this and others keep the industry afloat making it possible
for
them to take chances on less known more artistic writers?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:53:44 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: another Kerouac?
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>
>> i haven't read it, but i saw her talk about it on letterman, and my
>
>> hunch was that she doesn't know the first thing about writing...
>
But...
i
ALWAYS suspect reviews or critism of books that are assumptions. If
you
haven't read anything by the writer or in this case the book i think
it
isn't anything to be "scared" about.
I had an editor that was giving
me feed
back about my stuff not being right for a underground magazine,
he said
very specific things about tone and
that i failed to catch the
spirit
of what they were trying to do. I had worked very hard on the
piece.
lots of back ground, lots of research, and had a wonderful editor
go over
the material. we were both set back at the final and rather
brutal
rejection. then i found out by chance
that the editor had not
read
one word, just knew it by knowing me. I thought what an arrogant
creep.
art should not be soley judged by the artist. I know several
people
who reviewed williams art as without ever having to look at any
of it,
I am probably a bit nasty on this but, oh what was the point i
was
trying to make. as i wander into is this beat, no it isn't .
lets
read the preface to queer and talk about it.
It is a strong
piece. the first time i read (heard) it i
wept. I laid on a couch and
wept
for the tragedy, the beauty of the writing, the baring of the soul,
and the
chance of anyone dealing with life with words like swords.. god
, it
was the part of williams writing that always gripped me.
as to
the thread another keruak
i
believe in the power in language, there might be a poem or line or
tome
coming that will change the world , the chance is high, rather he
or
she will be seen as a kerouac is not
important to me at least.
because
twain, kerouac, proust, t wolf, blake, all are part of us now
and
somehow the writers that are coming will come from them and their
kin.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:34:30 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: my comments on Patricia's posts
Comments:
To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
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-----Original
Message-----
From:
Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Friday, November 07, 1997 10:23 AM
Subject:
Re: my comments on Patricia's posts
>hallo,
>
>I've
gotten private e-mail that leads me to believe that some people read
>my
post as a negative criticism of Patricia's posts. I don't mean them to
>be
read that way at all. I enjoy her thoughts and recollections of
>friendship
with WSB immensely. In my post I was just pointing people to
>some
other sources, especially writing by Burroughs himself, where they
>could
find the information. The desire to see a Grauerholz memoir is in no
>way
a slight of Patricia's writings either.
>
>Ah,
but as our good friend Derrida tells us
>"Every
reading is a misreading."
>
>Cheers,
>Neil
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:38:27 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: my comments on Patricia's posts
Comments:
To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
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From:
Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
To:
Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
Subject:
Re: Re: my comments on Patricia's
posts
Date:
Friday, November 07, 1997 12:41 PM
Hi
Neil,
I did
not get any impression that you were criticizing Patricia. On the
contrary
I felt you were expressing your own appreciation just as I was.
James
Grauerholtz has of course a unique treasure of observations from all
sorts
of perspectives about Burroughs' life, and you chose the one aspect,
as a
friend, that you are looking forward to hear about. I can only take it
as
firmer affirmation of the worth of true friends' reports. I hope I did
not
sound as taking issue here.
What I
was trying to point out is how different to me is the foundation for
wisdom
about life that I get from ongoing communications with real people
whom I
get to know, who are continuing to respond to immediate situations,
over
the knowledge that I get from reading a book that was written by a
person
whom I don't know. I like the list as a new kind of source of
knowledge.
I can
see where that might play into some questions about scholarly
evaluations
of literary issues. I myself miss the scholarly discussions that
are a
bit dormant at the moment. I feel though that just as it may be
inappropriate
to use people's lives to evaluate their art, it is also just
as
inappropriate to evaluate their life by their art. But of course, you
very
clearly say the same thing. As you point out the way Burroughs treats
women
in some of his books is not quite the same way he treated women in his
real
life.
Literary
scholarship to evaluate literary aspects of literature, friends to
tell us
about the lives of the authors of literature. The best of two
worlds.
That
leaves us of course forever fascinated about the sometimes strange
bedfellows
of authors and their works. It does seem that often these are two
diverging
spheres that are not easily reconciled or understood as coming
from a
single source where it all comes together.
Comes
to mind for example my own musings about what might be really involved
in our
human nature and its creation. Some of you have already found me out
to be a
pretty decent fellow. You will be hardpressed to find any one who
would
claim that I have been abusive or inconsiderate. You will find some
who
would say that I have been more considerate and responsible to strangers
than I
have been to my own family, but that is probably the worst that you
would
hear about me, from people who know me in person.
However
look at me in the written records, a criminal felonious record a
mile
long as they might say. Even as Kerouac's biographer our own Gey
Nicosia
likes to point out about Paul, what do you expect from a man who is
a
convicted criminal, felon? Don't mean to fan the flames and I am not
saying
it with any ill feeling toward Nicosia, I understand that anything
that
helps undermine the dredibility of an opponent is to be used in serious
battle. I also understand that in spite of it, that
Nicosia might reserve
judgment
about me inspite of my lengthy criminal record since we are not
battling
each other. I am just using this example of how defined recorded
facts
can take on a life of their own and may not be at all indicative of
what is
involved in the real life of the protagonist. Am I a no good
criminal
or am I a decent guy you can trust? Am I both some would say? And
if so
how does that translate into what you might expect in a human being.
If I
were a literary person I might be interested in expounding what
terrible
insensitive killers we all are. Look at how we just tear up
billions
of delicately formed living beings with ancesral trees that dwarf
our own
into insignificance just for fuel. Just because we think we are such
hot
shots, building skyscrapers and polluting our environment with discarded
waste
from the massive amounts of nature's structures that we tear apart for
our
convenience and amusement? It's all true isn't it?
Now if
I wrote about it it could be said that I am a mysogynist in my
writings.
But does it not mean only that I am peeking into the shadows that
we
prefer to ignore because we can only tolerate that much discomfort about
hazy
seemingly impenetrable issues. Rather than concluding that on a scale
of
friend or foe of women Burroughs as a person stands in one end while
Burroughs
the writer stands at another end, I might conclude that Burroughs
as a
person ventured out with real friendliness to real fellow travelling
humans,
while as a thinker stretching to the horizons he was willing to toss
around
all kinds of socially unacceptable conceptualizion possibilities,
that
did no harm to real people. men or women.
Should
have stopped way back. I respect your opinions Neil, and hope that I
have
not misunderstood, let alone misconstrued.
Best
wishes,
leon
leon
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Friday, November 07, 1997 10:23 AM
Subject:
Re: my comments on Patricia's posts
>hallo,
>
>I've
gotten private e-mail that leads me to believe that some people read
>my
post as a negative criticism of Patricia's posts. I don't mean them to
>be
read that way at all. I enjoy her thoughts and recollections of
>friendship
with WSB immensely. In my post I was just pointing people to
>some
other sources, especially writing by Burroughs himself, where they
>could
find the information. The desire to see a Grauerholz memoir is in no
>way
a slight of Patricia's writings either.
>
>Ah,
but as our good friend Derrida tells us
>"Every
reading is a misreading."
>
>Cheers,
>Neil
>.-
>
tep
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Friday, November 07, 1997 10:23 AM
Subject:
Re: my comments on Patricia's posts
>hallo,
>
>I've
gotten private e-mail that leads me to believe that some people read
>my
post as a negative criticism of Patricia's posts. I don't mean them to
>be
read that way at all. I enjoy her thoughts and recollections of
>friendship
with WSB immensely. In my post I was just pointing people to
>some
other sources, especially writing by Burroughs himself, where they
>could
find the information. The desire to see a Grauerholz memoir is in no
>way
a slight of Patricia's writings either.
>
>Ah,
but as our good friend Derrida tells us
>"Every
reading is a misreading."
>
>Cheers,
>Neil
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:49:35 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: my comments on Patricia's posts
MIME-Version:
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Patricia
Elliott wrote:
Howdy, I didn't take neals comment in any way
negative and I would
reassert
that reading william preface to queer would be the way to go.
i also
totally agree about that james would have a great deal to say and
i would
suspect he would be more than great at
it. He is a remarkable
person,
In my mind i call him "he who can"
The
preface to queer is a peice of work that i put up as some of the
best
writing written in decades. of ted
morgans book i thought it a
horrible
peice of crap, with wierdly slanted interpretations, full of
misinformation
and errors. There are many good books
out there if for
some
reason someone wanted different slants. next best is selected
letters.
>
> patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:49:05 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs and killing
Comments:
To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
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This
was the original response to Neil's message that I thought I sent to
the
list
leon
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Friday, November 07, 1997 7:01 AM
Subject:
Burroughs and killing
>Patricia
is right about two things:
>
>1)
The intro to Queer is THE best source for Burroughs' feelings about
>Joan's
death, and from a literary point of view, for his motivations for
>writing
("I am forced to the appalling conclusion that were it not for
>Joans'
death I would never have become a writer"). In addition to this I
>would
suggest the pretty comprehensive account of the incident in Ted
>Morgan's
_Literary Outlaw_. He records several eyewitness accounts, and
>some
of them are so strikingly different that they seem to be describing
>different
incidents. Ah, how the capricious memory
>
>2)
The mysoginy in his work did not extend to his personal life. See
>"Women
are a Biological Mistake" from _The Adding Machine_; however I'll
>laugh
heartily at any claim that Burroughs' writing isn't mysoginous.
>
>As
for the accounts of friends, the book I'm anxiously awaiting, although
>who
knows if it'll ever be written, is James Grauerholz's "Life with
>WSB"
book. I have no idea if he plans to write any memoirs, but I'd
>love
to read them if he does. Besides, James is a pretty interesting guy
>himself.
>
>Cheers,
>Neil
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:18:46 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs and killing
Comments:
To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
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Looks
like I am having some trouble getting mail out correctly. Apologies
all
around. This was my original reply to Neil that I thought went to the
list. I
did not mean to criticize you in any way, Neil.I appreciate your
contributions
a lot.
Leon
There
will always be more interesting new bits of information coming out of
the
woodwork and of the gifted pens of friends with knowledge. The Nice
thing
about the information that Patricia shares with us, is that I can feel
fully
confident that nothing will ever contradict the human illuminations
that
she provides us with. While Burroughs' giant intellectual footsteps
will be
subject to studies and speculations requiring brilliant cultured
minds
for the unforeseable future, our interest in the real perosn who lived
a real
life among friends is something that comes across to me best from a
true
friend who continues to relate as a true friend, whose interactions are
illuminating
their words, unlike something that I just read in a book by a
stranger
to me.
leon
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Friday, November 07, 1997 7:01 AM
Subject:
Burroughs and killing
>Patricia
is right about two things:
>
>1)
The intro to Queer is THE best source for Burroughs' feelings about
>Joan's
death, and from a literary point of view, for his motivations for
>writing
("I am forced to the appalling conclusion that were it not for
>Joans'
death I would never have become a writer"). In addition to this I
>would
suggest the pretty comprehensive account of the incident in Ted
>Morgan's
_Literary Outlaw_. He records several eyewitness accounts, and
>some
of them are so strikingly different that they seem to be describing
>different
incidents. Ah, how the capricious memory
>
>2)
The mysoginy in his work did not extend to his personal life. See
>"Women
are a Biological Mistake" from _The Adding Machine_; however I'll
>laugh
heartily at any claim that Burroughs' writing isn't mysoginous.
>
>As
for the accounts of friends, the book I'm anxiously awaiting, although
>who
knows if it'll ever be written, is James Grauerholz's "Life with
>WSB"
book. I have no idea if he plans to write any memoirs, but I'd
>love
to read them if he does. Besides, James is a pretty interesting guy
>himself.
>
>Cheers,
>Neil
>.-
>
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Friday, November 07, 1997 7:01 AM
Subject:
Burroughs and killing
>Patricia
is right about two things:
>
>1)
The intro to Queer is THE best source for Burroughs' feelings about
>Joan's
death, and from a literary point of view, for his motivations for
>writing
("I am forced to the appalling conclusion that were it not for
>Joans'
death I would never have become a writer"). In addition to this I
>would
suggest the pretty comprehensive account of the incident in Ted
>Morgan's
_Literary Outlaw_. He records several eyewitness accounts, and
>some
of them are so strikingly different that they seem to be describing
>different
incidents. Ah, how the capricious memory
>
>2)
The mysoginy in his work did not extend to his personal life. See
>"Women
are a Biological Mistake" from _The Adding Machine_; however I'll
>laugh
heartily at any claim that Burroughs' writing isn't mysoginous.
>
>As
for the accounts of friends, the book I'm anxiously awaiting, although
>who
knows if it'll ever be written, is James Grauerholz's "Life with
>WSB"
book. I have no idea if he plans to write any memoirs, but I'd
>love
to read them if he does. Besides, James is a pretty interesting guy
>himself.
>
>Cheers,
>Neil
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:20:08 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: another Kerouac?
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Tyson
Ouellette wrote:
>
> no, it can happen and it will... just
wait a while. the main
>
deterent i see is the volume of books published within ay given year
>
now. the market is saturated,
especially with a new small press
>
popping up every day. the advent of
mass instant communication is also
> an
obstacle, people feel less of a need to communalize through books
>
because phones, email, internet, television is everywhere all the time;
>
while present in the 50's it was much less constant, it's achieved fad
>
status now.
i
suspect that there will not be another Keroacu per se. He is in a
time
and place of his own and the timelessness will be linked to that
time
and place.
it
seems to me that some of the most important questions are asked in
the
journal notes of WSB reprinted in the New Yorker some time ago.
Where
can we go with the novel?
it
seems to me -- and i've been beginning to discuss this some with a
friend
in LA -- the next phase is not through the traditional publishers
but
through the wonders of the technology we're using right now. the
possibilities
for non-linearity by way of HTML linkages (i have no idea
what
HTML means :)), allowing linearity and non-linearity to exist in
the
same space seems promising. the
possibilities of incorporating the
wonderful
work that has been done with spoken word -- and its mixture
with
musics -- with the words themselves in terms of page and audio are
a
loving future prospect (perhaps not future -- perhaps now -- but since
i don't
have a sound card as of yet, it is still future for me) -- the
possibilities
of connecting the visual with the word and the sound all
in
linkages that connect the traditional format of writing with the
forms
that are mentioned as distractions from the traditional format
above
all seem wonderful avenues for exploration.
i have
to wonder sometimes about Kerouac and company if they had been
alive
in this time. i can't imagine that they
would not have been
connected
to these technological innovations that allow for the
traditional
forms and yet offer possibilities far from the conventional
as
well.
just
some random thinking....
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:19:15 -0700
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From: Harold Rhenisch
<rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>
Subject: Re: another Kerouac?
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I think
we will get another Kerouac out of the blue.
What
was avante-garde is no longer.
That
Germans look to Bukowski as the great american writer suggests that
since
he can make a smash in that very different context, it might be a
matter
of switching contexts.
Harold
Rhenisch
rhenisch@web-trek.net
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Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:24:01 -0700
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From: Harold Rhenisch
<rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>
Subject: Re: another Kerouac?
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You
bet.
***
i
believe in the power in language, there might be a poem or line or
tome
coming that will change the world , the chance is high, rather he
or
she will be seen as a kerouac is not
important to me at least.
because
twain, kerouac, proust, t wolf, blake, all are part of us now
and
somehow the writers that are coming will come from them and their
kin.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 19:19:34 EST
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From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Conference
John
Tytell asked me to forward the following conference information to
the
list: CALL FOR PAPERS
FOR THE
1998 NETHERLANDS AMERICAN STUDIES ASSOCIATIION (NASA) CONFERENCE
ON
BEAT
CULTURE AND BEYOND
American
Countercultures in the 1950s
During
the fifties and early sixties a broad cultural movement,
permeating
many forms of artistic expression (poetry, novels, visual
arts,
film making and music) transformed American artistic life. It
tried
to offer another perspective on American reality (street-level
realism)
as an alternative to the conforrnity and consensus of the
Eisenhower
years.
The
Netherlands American Studies Association conference to be held at
the
Roosevelt Study Center in Middelburg, the Netherlands, on June 3-5,
1998
aims to explore the interactions in the United States between the
dominant
culture and the countercultures, especially that of the Beat
Generation.
Attention will also be given to the impact of these
countercultures
in Europe. It will do so from a multi-disciplinary angle
(historyv
literature, sociology, cinematography, music, religion,
etcetera).
A
selection of the conference proceedings will be published in the
series
European Contributions to American Studies (Amsterdam: VU
University
Press). The conference volume will be edited by the
conference
organizers Jaap van der Bent, Mel van Elteren, and Kees van
Minnen.
Scholars
interested in participating in this conference are invited to
submit
a one-page paper proposal before December 1, 1997. Paper
presenters
are requested to cover their own travel and hotel expenses.
Conference
Secretarv:
Dr.
Kees van Minnen Roosevelt Study Center P.O. Box 6001 4330 LA
Middelburg
The Netherlands fax: 31-118-631593 e-mail:
c.vanminnen@,rsc.knaw.nl
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:15:22 -0000
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From: Mark Baartse
<seenoise@DIRCON.CO.UK>
Subject: Beat Shop in London
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Hi all.
I've
heard rumours around that there is a shop in or near Camden, London,
that
specialises in selling beat literature, etc. Does anyone know of this
shop?
Do you have a name/address/phone number/anything?
Mark
consistency
is the refuge of the unimaginative
oscar wilde
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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:25:14 -0000
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From: Mark Baartse
<seenoise@DIRCON.CO.UK>
Subject: New recordings
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I'm
working on a highly interactive web project, which will be a sort of
interactive
music/spoken word centre. As part of it, several segments of
spoken
word readings are needed. The whole project is very beat influenced
(although
not beat) and so would like to maintain that in the recordings.
I am
planning to put in some recordings of Burroughs, but really want to
avoid
having a large portion of the content being old stuff - I really want
a 90s
thing in there (the music is very 90's, and the look although not
specifically
90s, couldn't really exist in any other decade!). So, does
anyone
have, or can they suggest, some good spoken word recordings suitable
for my
uses? 1 or 2 minutes in length (per piece) would be ideal, but there
is
flexibility.
Email
me for more info - seenoise@dircon.co.uk.
Cheers,
Mark
consistency
is the refuge of the unimaginative
oscar wilde
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 20:09:25 -0500
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From: Carl A Biancucci
<carl@WORLD.STD.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat Shop in London
In-Reply-To: <01bcebdb$67563780$0100007f@localhost>
from "Mark Baartse" at Nov
8, 97 00:15:22 am
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>
I've heard rumours around that there is a shop in or near Camden, London,
>
that specialises in selling beat literature, etc. Does anyone know of this
>
shop? Do you have a name/address/phone number/anything?
>
>
Mark
===>You're
thinking of Compendium.
It's not bad
(although for my money,Water Row's
selection
is much more impressive)
Go on a Saturday,and check out the Camden
Lock
Flea Market as well.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 03:35:23 UT
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From: "Shani St.John"
<lawlaw1@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: pome
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Marlene Giraud
Sent: Monday, November 03, 1997 8:07 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: pome
POETICIDE-- a writer's hallucination
i sat in my room with jack kerouac last night
and i crumbled
hugged my knees
and listened to the voice of my
mad
cracked
calloused
hands -- the invention
the spontaneous writer
the ONLY writer...
tossed my hair in a bun
wrapped myself in cotton linens
ate crackers and cheese and laughed out loud
i want to hear
tappity taps and clickety clicks
typewriters warming under my frenzied
fingers
but its the low glow of a computer
and the silence of my suburbia
marshmallow nights in front of the
t.v.
insomnia and piles of books--
the reformation of a poet
i'm growing inside these
tight blue jeans.
writing my name in the sand
or the blue knit carpet of my room
my split-level home
my split-level mind
my aching jazz-soul
my drippy slippy lilting voice
that moves
with my moods
and slides through poetry like
melted moons
I want to get drunk!
I want to get high!
suck nicotine and kiss someone i
hardly know
smell the fog
inhale the driveway concrete
the neighbor's dog
caricatured moonlight spiderlight dances
Oh! my piece of life
piece of stained glass freedom
piece of ass and frozen highway
Oh blue rain and sunday mornings
memories of church choir and
pancake breakfeast
i wish
i didn't know where i'll be when i wake up.
Oh jack,
i need to feel hot wine sliding
down my throat
take tea trips with eyes
closed.
i would've liked to seen your
face
your drunksad eyes
maybe touch your shoulder
hear the world
go "pop!"
but, i'm still dreaming
i'm still flowing
i'm still creating
and maybe its not
hitch hike america
or booze freedom
maybe its not
stolen cars
or san francisco
but its my journal i cling to
my innocence i run away from
i love in soft waves
i sing out loud in the car
i scratch the sky
i mold
i grasp
i hold
i'm soaking in sadness
rolling in madness
tracing my fingers along the edges
guiding my hips
the cd's on
repeat
repeat
repeat
i feel like a woman
and i'm still
naked.
~~marlene
nov. 2nd at 1:00 am
God . .
. Man! I have to tell you how beautiful that was. It was perfect and
it kind
of made me cry a little . . . You captured the emotions that I feel.
It is
like someone took a photograph of my mind.
I didn't know anyone could
relate
to this longing, this searching for SOMETHING in a world that just
won't
hold you. . . the dissatisfaction of it.
It was like these perfect
chrystalline
images that were graphic, real, alive. You expressed exactly what
I've
been struggling to say for years.
Thank you for sharing that. I
think
I'll
save it, hold on to it. Anyway, I hope
you get it published. The best
thing
I've read in years.
Shani