=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:49:32 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199711091805180903@classic.msn.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Why does there have to be ONE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL? I would think that

there would be many such novels, especially, when one takes in

consideration, the number of genres that are out there and, also, how

writing styles of changed in the past one  hundred years. Trying to

choose  THE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL from many different genres is like

comparing apples and oranges. Why don't we just sit back and enjoy whats

out there? Not everything has to be a competition.

~Nancy

 

 

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Sherri wrote:

 

> i'm beginning to think that the "Great American" novel of this century as

> actually possible.  the country is so huge, experience from region, class,

> race, religion so variable any more - i think it would take a James Joyce to

> encompass it all.  only person of that ilk that comes to mind for me is

> Umberto Eco - hardly a candidate for writing an "American" novel.

>

> much as i love and revere Fitzgerald and some of the others mentioned, i fear

> the notion can't really be entertained realistically.  or do i, perhaps, have

> a different notion of what the Great American novel of this century is?

>

> ciao,

> sherri

>

> ----------

> From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James Stauffer

> Sent:   Sunday, November 09, 1997 9:43 AM

> To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject:        Re: another Kerouac?

>

> Joey,

>

> I'd have to concur with you on Gatsby.  I'm not sure that as the century

> closes we are quite sure what a novel is anymore and the importance of

> the form seems to be in at least a temporary decline.

>

> There have been a lot of wonderful books in our times, but I can't think

> of as perfect a novel as Gatsby in our time.

>

> J. Stauffer

>

> Joey Mellott wrote:

>

> >

> > I hate to admit thinking this, but I think the great American novel of the

> > twentieth century has been written: The Great Gatsby.

>

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:58:58 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: ]

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Hey, sorry about wasting bandwidth.   Obviously, I hit reply instead of forward.

  And there you go, James, I help you prove

a point eh?

 

Bentz Kirby wrote:

 

> In case you are interested, here is Paul's latest beat literature

> response.

>

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:02:55 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997110912323331@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Joey Mellott wrote:

 

> ----------

> > From: Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

> > To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> > Subject: Re: another Kerouac?

> > Date: Saturday, November 08, 1997 12:19 PM

> >

> > >I don't believe that the great American novel of

> > >the twentieth century has been written yet.

> > ***

> > Oh-oh.

> >

> > Time's running out.

>

> I hate to admit thinking this, but I think the great American novel of the

> twentieth century has been written: The Great Gatsby.  While I'm not

> stating that it was the best book from the US in the 20th cen, I believe

> that Gatsby, before anyone else, could see the direction that America was

> going, i.e. materialistic, consumeristic, and cynical, and probably would

> not have been surprised that a culture so marginalized from this world view

> would spring up and write fantastic, subversive novels.  Kerouac,

> Burroughs, and Fitzgerald seem to agree that the American dream has become

> a nightmare.

 

-----no denying that gatsby was A great american

novel, but i think it is lacking in that it only

represents one view of "americana."  certainly, the

materialistc representation of gatsbys world was

superb, but this was where the novel stopped.  it

consciously did not deal with any of the intellectual

developments that were working in america.  and

although it did predict one of the social aspects of

america, "american" is more than a social or cultural

adjective.  but i do not argue that gatsby is  a

beautifully written, brilliant work.  but pynchon - in

my opinion - deals with many facets of americana.

especially mason and dixon.

 

>

> Joey Mellott : poet, writer, and jobless loafer

> (peyotecoyote@iah.com)

> "the socerers enter the ring, and the dancer with the six hundred little

> bells (300 of horn, 300 of silver) shrieks his coyote call in the forest."

> - Antonin Artaud

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:06:33 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199711091805180903@classic.msn.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

eco is certainly a genius.  i cant think of a more

entertaining writer - name of the rose was genius.

also, his critical work is superb, and his comic

publications are hysterical (and often all too true).

it is a shame that he cannot be considered for the

great american novelist.  but id be willing to grant

him such status if we could put him into the mix.  he

is easily one of the most intelligent men of out time.

james donahue

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Sherri wrote:

 

> i'm beginning to think that the "Great American" novel of this century as

> actually possible.  the country is so huge, experience from region, class,

> race, religion so variable any more - i think it would take a James Joyce to

> encompass it all.  only person of that ilk that comes to mind for me is

> Umberto Eco - hardly a candidate for writing an "American" novel.

>

> much as i love and revere Fitzgerald and some of the others mentioned, i fear

> the notion can't really be entertained realistically.  or do i, perhaps, have

> a different notion of what the Great American novel of this century is?

>

> ciao,

> sherri

>

> ----------

> From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James Stauffer

> Sent:   Sunday, November 09, 1997 9:43 AM

> To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject:        Re: another Kerouac?

>

> Joey,

>

> I'd have to concur with you on Gatsby.  I'm not sure that as the century

> closes we are quite sure what a novel is anymore and the importance of

> the form seems to be in at least a temporary decline.

>

> There have been a lot of wonderful books in our times, but I can't think

> of as perfect a novel as Gatsby in our time.

>

> J. Stauffer

>

> Joey Mellott wrote:

>

> >

> > I hate to admit thinking this, but I think the great American novel of the

> > twentieth century has been written: The Great Gatsby.

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:11:59 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.95.971109134503.8586A-100000@is8.nyu.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

well, i see your point, but its impossible to escape.

with the publications yearly of "the best american

essays" and "best american poetry," it is inescapable

that one should consider novels.  (anyone know of a

best american short story publication?)  and i dont

know where i st on the issue - i read and teach from

the best american essays, but i refuse to buy the best

american poetry - one issue edited by louise gluck

killed that for me.  but the comparison between works

is inevitable, especially as america no longer has a

core of a dozen or so writers that are generally

reverred as "great" (here i am thinking of fitzgerald,

faulkner, et al.)

also, one must consider teaching issues.  it would be

easier to devise syllabi is such a notion were -

decided but i dont know what i would do with that.

but thank you for that point.  we deserved it (but i

wont stop considering it, at leats not for now).

jim donahue

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

 

> Why does there have to be ONE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL? I would think that

> there would be many such novels, especially, when one takes in

> consideration, the number of genres that are out there and, also, how

> writing styles of changed in the past one  hundred years. Trying to

> choose  THE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL from many different genres is like

> comparing apples and oranges. Why don't we just sit back and enjoy whats

> out there? Not everything has to be a competition.

> ~Nancy

>

>

>

> On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Sherri wrote:

>

> > i'm beginning to think that the "Great American" novel of this century as

> > actually possible.  the country is so huge, experience from region, class,

> > race, religion so variable any more - i think it would take a James Joyce to

> > encompass it all.  only person of that ilk that comes to mind for me is

> > Umberto Eco - hardly a candidate for writing an "American" novel.

> >

> > much as i love and revere Fitzgerald and some of the others mentioned, i

 fear

> > the notion can't really be entertained realistically.  or do i, perhaps,

 have

> > a different notion of what the Great American novel of this century is?

> >

> > ciao,

> > sherri

> >

> > ----------

> > From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James Stauffer

> > Sent:   Sunday, November 09, 1997 9:43 AM

> > To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> > Subject:        Re: another Kerouac?

> >

> > Joey,

> >

> > I'd have to concur with you on Gatsby.  I'm not sure that as the century

> > closes we are quite sure what a novel is anymore and the importance of

> > the form seems to be in at least a temporary decline.

> >

> > There have been a lot of wonderful books in our times, but I can't think

> > of as perfect a novel as Gatsby in our time.

> >

> > J. Stauffer

> >

> > Joey Mellott wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > I hate to admit thinking this, but I think the great American novel of the

> > > twentieth century has been written: The Great Gatsby.

> >

>

> The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

> Sure-JK

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:24:06 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Re: it's all good...

Comments: To: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@comic.net>

In-Reply-To:  <34655CA2.5E8D@comic.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Cathy Wilkie wrote:

 

> > Subject:

> >         it's all good

> >   Date:

> >         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:17:26 -0800

> >   From:

> >         Jerry Mader <jjm@TIDALWAVE.NET>

> >

> >

> > i will supply you with new adventers,sure you will doubt my competense

> > and free spirt but i know.  i see you cry your yearning for more but i

> > will comfort you in your time of need. sure i can move to france and

> > write a book and make you stand on end for more but am i capable of much

> > more. yes my brothers and sisters i am. thsi isn't jerry okay, its his

> > son thats using this account, im not using this to get stock quotes or

> > info about important info, im using this to trade info, isn't this what

> > its all about, sure you can try to braeak me down with your words and

> > thoughts but i won't give, you see i'm tired of your conformist views.

> > break away from what you know, embark upon something unknown (if u found

> > this list then i know you are competent) lets start something here some

> > thing brand spanking "NEW"!!!!!!!

>

> DUDE!!!!!!!!Why don't you just sit back and relax, and quit poking us in

> the ribs????

>

> What is this ...."you see i'm tired of your conformist views?????"

>

> Just how old are you, anyway??? You sound all of 13 going on 12.

>

>

> cathy

>

I'm on this guy's side.  Who in the world doesn't occasionally need a

wake-up call?  If it's *not* true, why get defensive about it?

 

Peace

 

Don Lee

Fayetteville, Ark.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:41:53 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

 

yes, he is.  his book "Foucault's Pendulum" dances circles around the "Name of

the Rose".  ciao, sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James Donahue

Sent:   Sunday, November 09, 1997 5:06 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: another Kerouac?

 

eco is certainly a genius.  i cant think of a more

entertaining writer - name of the rose was genius.

also, his critical work is superb, and his comic

publications are hysterical (and often all too true).

it is a shame that he cannot be considered for the

great american novelist.  but id be willing to grant

him such status if we could put him into the mix.  he

is easily one of the most intelligent men of out time.

james donahue

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Sherri wrote:

 

> i'm beginning to think that the "Great American" novel of this century as

> actually possible.  the country is so huge, experience from region, class,

> race, religion so variable any more - i think it would take a James Joyce to

> encompass it all.  only person of that ilk that comes to mind for me is

> Umberto Eco - hardly a candidate for writing an "American" novel.

>

> much as i love and revere Fitzgerald and some of the others mentioned, i

fear

> the notion can't really be entertained realistically.  or do i, perhaps,

have

> a different notion of what the Great American novel of this century is?

>

> ciao,

> sherri

>

> ----------

> From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James Stauffer

> Sent:   Sunday, November 09, 1997 9:43 AM

> To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject:        Re: another Kerouac?

>

> Joey,

>

> I'd have to concur with you on Gatsby.  I'm not sure that as the century

> closes we are quite sure what a novel is anymore and the importance of

> the form seems to be in at least a temporary decline.

>

> There have been a lot of wonderful books in our times, but I can't think

> of as perfect a novel as Gatsby in our time.

>

> J. Stauffer

>

> Joey Mellott wrote:

>

> >

> > I hate to admit thinking this, but I think the great American novel of the

> > twentieth century has been written: The Great Gatsby.

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:10:41 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Paul's persona Re:

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 07:23 AM 11/9/97 -0600, you wrote:

>Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

>>

>> Sorry for the presumptuousness. . .some of them have that Gen-X tone. My

>> masturbatory flight of fancy is a grandiose structuring of the rise and fall

>> of mankind with the stroke and sleight of one hand.I guess I'll have to be

>> careful not to step on the eggshell personalities of our more enlightened

>> contributors of the Beat-L. I took the "Beat" in a different way I guess

>> because there is hardly ever any reference to "Beat" Literature. paul...P.S.

>> , don't wear out your elastic waistbands.

>> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>>                                            Henry David Thoreau

>

>Paul,

>

>i spent quite a few efforts examining a poem that would fit within your

>genre by Allen Ginsberg (which i imagine you'd feel more than happy to

>piss on as well) and you showed NO interest.  Please don't pretend that

>you have a personality and it is just somehow offended by the lack of

>critical examination of beat literature.  you don't contribute

>intelligently to discussion of Beat Literature either.  Not sure why you

>take such pleasure in spite but it can make a guy grow weary seeing you

>build yourself up by tearing others down.  I really don't understand

>your reactions.  I'm not certain what you wish to read about on this

>listserv.  Diane had an excellent post that struck straight in the heart

>of your conceptions (as i try to comprehend them) of beat literature but

>rather than throwing your energy into that thread you decide to attempt

>more ridicule.  Jack is right, i believe, in the notions that Diane

>quoted concerning writers and various forms.  Joyce would be Joyce even

>in the reader's digest.  Paul would be a spiteful juvenile no matter

>where or in what form he chose to put his words.

>

>The weather has turned frightful in Kansas and your words provide a good

>reason to go back to sleep for another week.

>

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

 

 

>Thank-you drive thru....P.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:48:40 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: hearing the spoken word

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

>hi tyson and all people and things beat: ! i just did a reading with

>michael in plattsburgh, ny and he is now on the maine coast. michael is

>an

>amazing man with an incredible constitution for being on the road and

>being totally THERE when he arrives. i highly recommend any one who  is

>putting together readings or workshops (his are wonderful) could do no

>better than michael.

 

     yeah, he came here straight from NY, quite a drive.  yes, he was

completely there, it's refreshing.  i highly recommend his Elegy for

the Road - Kerouac's Ghost.. was one of my favorites.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:14:13 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: ]

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 01:58 PM 11/9/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Hey, sorry about wasting bandwidth.   Obviously, I hit reply instead of

forward.

>  And there you go, James, I help you prove

>a point eh?

>

>Bentz Kirby wrote:

>

>> In case you are interested, here is Paul's latest beat literature

>> response.

>>

which is?

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:16:44 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Paul's persona Re:

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 07:23 AM 11/9/97 -0600, you wrote:

>Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

>>

>> Sorry for the presumptuousness. . .some of them have that Gen-X tone. My

>> masturbatory flight of fancy is a grandiose structuring of the rise and fall

>> of mankind with the stroke and sleight of one hand.I guess I'll have to be

>> careful not to step on the eggshell personalities of our more enlightened

>> contributors of the Beat-L. I took the "Beat" in a different way I guess

>> because there is hardly ever any reference to "Beat" Literature. paul...P.S.

>> , don't wear out your elastic waistbands.

>> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>>                                            Henry David Thoreau

>

>Paul,

>

>i spent quite a few efforts examining a poem that would fit within your

>genre by Allen Ginsberg (which i imagine you'd feel more than happy to

>piss on as well) and you showed NO interest.  Please don't pretend that

>you have a personality and it is just somehow offended by the lack of

>critical examination of beat literature.  you don't contribute

>intelligently to discussion of Beat Literature either.  Not sure why you

>take such pleasure in spite but it can make a guy grow weary seeing you

>build yourself up by tearing others down.  I really don't understand

>your reactions.  I'm not certain what you wish to read about on this

>listserv.  Diane had an excellent post that struck straight in the heart

>of your conceptions (as i try to comprehend them) of beat literature but

>rather than throwing your energy into that thread you decide to attempt

>more ridicule.  Jack is right, i believe, in the notions that Diane

>quoted concerning writers and various forms.  Joyce would be Joyce even

>in the reader's digest.  Paul would be a spiteful juvenile no matter

>where or in what form he chose to put his words.

>

>The weather has turned frightful in Kansas and your words provide a good

>reason to go back to sleep for another week.

>

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

>Sleep on my friend...you'll be right at home with the rest of them...P.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:22:39 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

Subject:      The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:

 

what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century American

Novel"?

 

I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?

 

What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute

something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?

 

I figure that will be worth a try.

 

Best,

 

Harold Rhenisch

rhenisch@web-trek.net

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:36:54 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Paul's persona Re:

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 07:23 AM 11/9/97 -0600, you wrote:

>Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:

>>

>> Sorry for the presumptuousness. . .some of them have that Gen-X tone. My

>> masturbatory flight of fancy is a grandiose structuring of the rise and fall

>> of mankind with the stroke and sleight of one hand.I guess I'll have to be

>> careful not to step on the eggshell personalities of our more enlightened

>> contributors of the Beat-L. I took the "Beat" in a different way I guess

>> because there is hardly ever any reference to "Beat" Literature. paul...P.S.

>> , don't wear out your elastic waistbands.

>> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>>                                            Henry David Thoreau

>

>Paul,

>

>i spent quite a few efforts examining a poem that would fit within your

>genre by Allen Ginsberg (which i imagine you'd feel more than happy to

>piss on as well) and you showed NO interest.  Please don't pretend that

>you have a personality and it is just somehow offended by the lack of

>critical examination of beat literature.  you don't contribute

>intelligently to discussion of Beat Literature either.  Not sure why you

>take such pleasure in spite but it can make a guy grow weary seeing you

>build yourself up by tearing others down.  I really don't understand

>your reactions.  I'm not certain what you wish to read about on this

>listserv.  Diane had an excellent post that struck straight in the heart

>of your conceptions (as i try to comprehend them) of beat literature but

>rather than throwing your energy into that thread you decide to attempt

>more ridicule.  Jack is right, i believe, in the notions that Diane

>quoted concerning writers and various forms.  Joyce would be Joyce even

>in the reader's digest.  Paul would be a spiteful juvenile no matter

>where or in what form he chose to put his words.

>

>The weather has turned frightful in Kansas and your words provide a good

>reason to go back to sleep for another week.

>

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

>

 

I have no "genre." What I do have is an impulsive delight in playing with

words, any words, that lay before me in a most horrible turgid manner. They,

the very instruments of my fancy abused to the point of recklessness. They

pitted into cliches and sucked out left bloodless and void of insight and

meaning. I seize these words and turn them on their backs with their legs

grasping at thin air like turtles upended by a cruel child, and I watch them

struggle feebly, disabled momentarily. I assume the chance to solicit the

very response I take the time to engender.

   Alas, the universe is a whole. How can that be denied? Just as man

breathes eighteen times a minute, or 25,920 times a day, the equinoctial

point of the sun runs through the zodiac once in every 25,920 years. Our

hearts beat only one-fourth as fast as our lungs breathe, just as the speed

of the propagation of air is four times greater than a film that records the

variety of the phenomena of the universe. I am convinced that I am of this

world itself, that I embody the living nucleus of the landscape. My

existential obsession is constantly to mimetize myslef. Like it, I am a

cathedral of strength with a nimbus of dreamlike delirium. My granite

structure is equipped with ductilities, haze, glint, quicksands, that hide

its needles, its craters, its promontories, the better to let me keep my

secrets.  P.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:58:23 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

>what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century American

>Novel"?

>What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute

>something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?

 

     that all depends on what we understand novel to mean, the new

american novel will not be linear, in fact, will not even have plot in

the traditional sense.  the new american novel will have to take on the

air of what we see in independent movies, a renewed devotoin to the

adage that it's not what you write but how you write it.  it'll be like

dreaming...  basically, the new american novel is Naked Lunch, it's

mind-blowing how much before its time it was.  I'd venture to say that

maybe Naked Lunch is the great amer. novel of the 20th century that has

already been written.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:08:12 +1000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Duncan Gray <duncang@ENTO.CSIRO.AU>

Subject:      Re: Was Burroghs really a killer?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Leon, I feel you do this when you write about Neal.

 

Duncan

 

At 12:10 PM 10/11/97 +1000, you wrote:

>Date:    Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:02:57 PST

>From:    Leon Tabory <letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>

>Subject: Re: Was Burroghs really a killer?

>

>Patricia

>

>You are such a gem. I am not speaking of your poetry right now. I am

>speaking of how you give definition to the word true friend. A true

>friend is not one who would overlook and color in things to make the

>friend look "better". A true friend loves their friend enough to know

>them as much as only a true friend can, and accepts them for what they

>are. A true friend can explain a person better than any objectified

>scholarship tries to do. A true friend wants to explain their friends to

>others who would like to know more about them in a way that they come

>out of the shadows of various possibilities. So many of the questions

>that seem to linger after explanations by remote scholarly

>interpretations are finally fully answered by the integrity and true

>friendship that you share with us.

>Your true friendship enlightens us about the wonderful human being

>William S. Burroughs was and the mistakes that he made in living his

>very human life. With your help I know him better too.

>

>leon

>------------------------------------------------------------------.o0

>Duncan Gray

>Stored Grain Research Laboratory

>CSIRO Entomology, GPO Box 1700, Canberra ACT 2601

>Ph. (06) 246 4178  Fax (06) 246 4202

>----------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------.o0

Duncan Gray

Stored Grain Research Laboratory

CSIRO Entomology, GPO Box 1700, Canberra ACT 2601

Ph. (06) 246 4178  Fax (06) 246 4202

----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:29:06 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: another Kerouac?

In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199711092244180160@classic.msn.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

the more i read, the more i need to read...another

book to put on my list.

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Sherri wrote:

 

> yes, he is.  his book "Foucault's Pendulum" dances circles around the "Name of

> the Rose".  ciao, sherri

>

> ----------

> From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James Donahue

> Sent:   Sunday, November 09, 1997 5:06 PM

> To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject:        Re: another Kerouac?

>

> eco is certainly a genius.  i cant think of a more

> entertaining writer - name of the rose was genius.

> also, his critical work is superb, and his comic

> publications are hysterical (and often all too true).

> it is a shame that he cannot be considered for the

> great american novelist.  but id be willing to grant

> him such status if we could put him into the mix.  he

> is easily one of the most intelligent men of out time.

> james donahue

>

> On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Sherri wrote:

>

> > i'm beginning to think that the "Great American" novel of this century as

> > actually possible.  the country is so huge, experience from region, class,

> > race, religion so variable any more - i think it would take a James Joyce to

> > encompass it all.  only person of that ilk that comes to mind for me is

> > Umberto Eco - hardly a candidate for writing an "American" novel.

> >

> > much as i love and revere Fitzgerald and some of the others mentioned, i

> fear

> > the notion can't really be entertained realistically.  or do i, perhaps,

> have

> > a different notion of what the Great American novel of this century is?

> >

> > ciao,

> > sherri

> >

> > ----------

> > From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James Stauffer

> > Sent:   Sunday, November 09, 1997 9:43 AM

> > To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> > Subject:        Re: another Kerouac?

> >

> > Joey,

> >

> > I'd have to concur with you on Gatsby.  I'm not sure that as the century

> > closes we are quite sure what a novel is anymore and the importance of

> > the form seems to be in at least a temporary decline.

> >

> > There have been a lot of wonderful books in our times, but I can't think

> > of as perfect a novel as Gatsby in our time.

> >

> > J. Stauffer

> >

> > Joey Mellott wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > I hate to admit thinking this, but I think the great American novel of the

> > > twentieth century has been written: The Great Gatsby.

> >

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:34:01 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <B08B94F9-D9487@204.244.157.69>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

in this question, are you asking which novel is the

great american novel, or are you asking about the

"genre" of great american novel?  the first question

has been asked, and is being discussed (pynchon and

fitzgerald being specifically named in the

discussion).  as to the other choice, i dont know what

you mean.  but i believe that we have decided on this

questions undecidability.  but id love to discuss

alternatives to the genre "novel".  but wont this

bring us back to the poetry/prose disctinction?  and

what do we do about that?

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Harold Rhenisch wrote:

 

> The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:

>

> what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century American

> Novel"?

>

> I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?

>

> What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute

> something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?

>

> I figure that will be worth a try.

>

> Best,

>

> Harold Rhenisch

> rhenisch@web-trek.net

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:38:45 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Gary Snyder

In-Reply-To:  <9711100209.AA09981@spider.ento.csiro.au>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I just returned from a weekend trip four hours south to Hot Springs, where

Gary Snyder did a workshop/reading Saturday.  What an amazing experience.

I have paid less attention to him perhaps than any of the major Beats.  A

terrific guy, wonderful reader, beautiful poet.  I am out of superlatives.

Can anyone recommend anything to me besides, TURTLE ISLAND, which he just

signed and I began reading tonight?  (I took my copy of DHARMA BUMS,

though uncertain how he'd feel about signing someone else's

book--nonetheless, it being my first exposure to him at age 15, I

presented it. He said, "I always sign this one like so," and signed the

title page JAPHY RYDER.  Wow.)

 

Don Lee

Fayetteville, Ark.

 

"I make art about the misunderstandings that take place at the

border zone, but for me, the border is no longer at any fixed

geopolitical site. I carry the border with me, and I find new

borders, wherever I go."

                               --Guillermo Gomez-Pena

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:39:55 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <msg1195570.thr-cbdd020b.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

i knew it was only a matter of time before a beat was

brought into this mix (given the company we keep...).

but i dont think that the answer is wrong.  once

again, im forced to rethink my conception of what a

good novel is constructed by (or itself constructs).

but even if i dont fully agree with your choice, i do

agree with your argument - the great american novel,

if it does or ever will exist - will not be

traditional, and i daresay it will not be popular, but

it will be ahead of its time.

  james donahue

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:

 

> >what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century American

> >Novel"?

> >What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute

> >something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?

>

>      that all depends on what we understand novel to mean, the new

> american novel will not be linear, in fact, will not even have plot in

> the traditional sense.  the new american novel will have to take on the

> air of what we see in independent movies, a renewed devotoin to the

> adage that it's not what you write but how you write it.  it'll be like

> dreaming...  basically, the new american novel is Naked Lunch, it's

> mind-blowing how much before its time it was.  I'd venture to say that

> maybe Naked Lunch is the great amer. novel of the 20th century that has

> already been written.

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:47:34 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Interest from the Illiterate  Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

James Donahue wrote:

>

> in this question, are you asking which novel is the

> great american novel, or are you asking about the

> "genre" of great american novel?  the first question

> has been asked, and is being discussed (pynchon and

> fitzgerald being specifically named in the

> discussion).  as to the other choice, i dont know what

> you mean.  but i believe that we have decided on this

> questions undecidability.  but id love to discuss

> alternatives to the genre "novel".  but wont this

> bring us back to the poetry/prose disctinction?  and

> what do we do about that?

 

i've been following this thread with my usual recognition of how very

little i know and understand about all these ideas.  I've consistently

said to myself -- what is a novel?  What makes it a novel rather than

something less or more than a novel?  I honestly have no background or

idea.  And what does Beat Generation literature do in altering the

conceptions of the novel?  What does the Beat Generation literature do

to determine what constitutes the great American novel -- with the

notions of quality in connection with the novel itself?  Some have

mentioned linearity and non-linearity -- what about the 20th Century

suggests the need for redefinition towards the exploding (or imploding)

of linearity?  Naked Lunch is suggested as an exemplar of 20th Century

non-linearity but what motive pushes us towards non-linearity as a model

of quality, and if non-linearity is a pre-requisite of quality i wonder

about the notion of models and exemplars and if they may withstand the

same motivations that push against linearity.  What is the difference

between history and novel?  Between poetry and novel?  Between

philosophy or social theory and novel?

 

As you can see I have questions oh so many questions but very little

background or understanding of the matter.  It seems partly a question

of form, perhaps partly a question of substance.  I honestly haven't

been able to tell so far from the discussion anything close to what the

parameters of what is accepted as a novel might be.

 

Clueless in Kansas,

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

>

> On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Harold Rhenisch wrote:

>

> > The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:

> >

> > what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century American

> > Novel"?

> >

> > I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?

> >

> > What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute

> > something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?

> >

> > I figure that will be worth a try.

> >

> > Best,

> >

> > Harold Rhenisch

> > rhenisch@web-trek.net

> >

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:12:28 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         First_Name Last_Name <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

 

perhaps a great american novel need not exist.

perhaps a great american novel would not be agreed upon by everybody, and

even should a majority hit upon a particular book, does this mean they are

qualified?

should a great american novel for the 20th century ever be written, perhaps

it would be more the wise to wait until the 20th century in itself be

accurately acessed to see what would fit the qualifications.

 

perhaps the great american novel should not exist

 

"the withheld work of art is of the only eloquence left"

 

brian

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:29:59 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I was asking how different readers define "The Great American Novel". It

strikes me that if we are going to choose our favourites, we must have a

reason for doing so, which is probably just as interesting than the

favourite.

 

Best,

 

 

Harold Rhenisch

rhenisch@web-trek.net

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:35:49 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Hi again,

 

re:

 

>that all depends on what we understand novel to mean, the new

>american novel will not be linear, in fact, will not even have plot in

>the traditional sense.

 

Thanks for the reply. A good start, but what do we understand 'novel' to

mean? Why will it not be linear? Why will it not even have plot in the

traditional sense? This all must have something to do with what makes it

great and american, right?

 

Any thoughts?

 

Best,

 

Harold Rhenisch

rhenisch@web-trek.net

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:37:19 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Marlene's and sherri's poems

 

hello all,

 

well i'm back from my weekend trip and i was delighted and suprised to find

all these comments about my poem. Thank you for the praise. It makes feel all

warm inside when people like marie and sherri and david give me a compliment.

as for the "pome" paul wrote, should i be offended? the subject matter

doesn't shock me, but i hope it wasn't a personal attack. i write, i post,

you do what you wish with it. thanks folks. take care.

~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:06:00 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         First_Name Last_Name <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Untitled Nightthoughts

 

untitled

 

        i

in the sludge waste back bathroom of the golden arches

such is thus i find myself

        (begrudgingly)

 

let us cut to the middle;

                                                .right the than important more no is left the

after fulfilling my(-oh-my) obligatory daily rhythms

 and backing out, startled, from the stall, backwards, appalled

  about automatic motion-sensory flush mechanisms

        i lurch for the sink.

(motion sensored as well)

        to moisten the pores of my face.

 

and upon doing so:

 

                ii

the sickly lightbulbs flickered

three   in   sight   -   one by row , three   by   column

        the skythe      bloodthe        wedding virgin

  in lieu of a reflecting myself

                (since by now i am a gazing mute)

there is only a me - inherently dependent

      upon the siamesetriptych

 

my pale skin between self       u n r a v e l s reflection

fusingwiththe

        d

          y

            i

              n

                g lights l o o s e l y suspended before the mirrorrorrim

at this other i am many shades

   ove  separate   rla  distinct           pp   but    ing

 

                        iii

in the space between

the land of the prideful uroboros

is red

plasma-red with a penchant for

repetition reppitetion rhepuhtishun

 

   in the soul of the serpent between -

   gluttony mistaken for passion

   and in befuddled innocence - absent contrition

 

in the space between

the sky is an obtrusive blue

forgetful of the notion of just, just being

and the larger airplanes dominate

while the smaller wrestle beneath the shadow

 

   in the body of the serpent

   my fathers lack the foresight required to slither

   so, in shame(noshame) effect,

   construct feet, arms and comfortable penny loafers

 

in the keystone of the acid lightbath -

dishwater blinding bright

rests the virgin's thighs from whence

conceptualizing and awareness bounce forth

unable to bungee back

 

   the palette of the serpent

   composed of congruent colors by nature

   though, when conjoined by imperfect joints

   - ugly mixture imported meanings indiscriminate fate -

 

                                iv

i, in opposition to partake of this dying color scheme,

                                        backwards take a step with kouros symmetry

        and retrieve my slingshot

   a series of

pppppprrrrrroooooooojjjjjjjjjjjeeeeeeccccccctttttttttiiiiiiiiiillllllllllleeee

eeessssssssss

and howls rage forth

   purging the essence of mars

   cleansing the sky of its self-appointed interpreters

   shattering the great white mist permeating the facade of grandeur

 

                                        v

in the dark i can see nothing

there is fear; i falter in my confidence

all i have given myself is

 

autonomous

 

life - a concept i wasn't willing for yet -

 

the reflection is gone

the lightbulbs are gone, but the darkness

-their reflections pure and true- remain

 

i do not move.

i inhale the principles of this uncharted terrain.

this glee-wary uncertainty .

 

11-09-97

bhr

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:07:13 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>

Subject:      'great american novel'

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 

  Studying writing right now in college, I've heard the term "Great

American Novel" used and misused so many times. How can we possibly

take 100 years of joy, laughter, sorrow, and discovery and cram it

into only a several hundred pages?

  There hasn't been only one book to accomplish this, nor one writer.

While Ginsberg lived and wrote about what many Americans stood for (or

would have stood for, if they had put aside their fears of what others

would think), we cannot call him the Great American Poet. While

Hemingway may have epitomized the Lost Generation in "The Sun Also

Rises," he could not be the Great American Novelist. While Kerouac

mastered the art of spontaneous prose, he could never be called the

Great American Writer.

  Why must we narrow it down to one Great American Novel? In this

century, we've been lucky enough to have encountered the works of many

incredible writers-- Ginsberg, Kerouac, Ferlinghetti, Vonnegut, and

others-- so why not embrace them all?

  Personally, I'm overjoyed that we've had so many great writers to

learn from in the 20th Century, so many great minds who have

influenced the way I write and think.

  God bless America, and God bless all of our Great American Writers.

         Maggie G.

 

 

__________________________________________________________________

Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:38:28 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      Re: it's all good...

Comments: To: "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@comp.uark.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Donald G. Jr. Lee wrote:

>

> On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Cathy Wilkie wrote:

>

> > > Subject:

> > >         it's all good

> > >   Date:

> > >         Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:17:26 -0800

> > >   From:

> > >         Jerry Mader <jjm@TIDALWAVE.NET>

> > >

> > >

> > > i will supply you with new adventers,sure you will doubt my competense

> > > and free spirt but i know.  i see you cry your yearning for more but i

> > > will comfort you in your time of need. sure i can move to france and

> > > write a book and make you stand on end for more but am i capable of much

> > > more. yes my brothers and sisters i am. thsi isn't jerry okay, its his

> > > son thats using this account, im not using this to get stock quotes or

> > > info about important info, im using this to trade info, isn't this what

> > > its all about, sure you can try to braeak me down with your words and

> > > thoughts but i won't give, you see i'm tired of your conformist views.

> > > break away from what you know, embark upon something unknown (if u found

> > > this list then i know you are competent) lets start something here some

> > > thing brand spanking "NEW"!!!!!!!

> >

> > DUDE!!!!!!!!Why don't you just sit back and relax, and quit poking us in

> > the ribs????

> >

> > What is this ...."you see i'm tired of your conformist views?????"

> >

> > Just how old are you, anyway??? You sound all of 13 going on 12.

> >

> >

> > cathy

> >

> I'm on this guy's side.  Who in the world doesn't occasionally need a

> wake-up call?  If it's *not* true, why get defensive about it?

>

> Peace

>

> Don Lee

> Fayetteville, Ark.

 

 

 

 

Here's why I sound defensive:  I remember being 12 ,13,14 years old and

spouting off this sort of thing, almost his exact words-without really

believing it.  I firmly believe that it took me until well into my

twenties to find my own voice, to really believe that what i have to say

does make a difference.

So this kid can spout of his statements as he did above, but what he

really needs to do is to find his own way, his own voice.  Then he can

raise his voice 'right along' with ours, and 'something new' will have

already begun.

 

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:09:39 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Craig Sapp <ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Untitled Nightthoughts

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

impressive journey --

i especially liked the image of being appalled at the automatic flushing

device, the horror of the realization of absurd world. the

ending stansa is great.

 

from,

Eric

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:06:00 -0500 First_Name Last_Name

<Kindlesan@AOL.COM> wrote:

 

> untitled

>

>         i

> in the sludge waste back bathroom of the golden arches

> such is thus i find myself

>         (begrudgingly)

>

> let us cut to the middle;

>                                                 .right the than important more

 no is left the

> after fulfilling my(-oh-my) obligatory daily rhythms

>  and backing out, startled, from the stall, backwards, appalled

>   about automatic motion-sensory flush mechanisms

>         i lurch for the sink.

> (motion sensored as well)

>         to moisten the pores of my face.

>

> and upon doing so:

>

>                 ii

> the sickly lightbulbs flickered

> three   in   sight   -   one by row , three   by   column

>         the skythe      bloodthe        wedding virgin

>   in lieu of a reflecting myself

>                 (since by now i am a gazing mute)

> there is only a me - inherently dependent

>       upon the siamesetriptych

>

> my pale skin between self       u n r a v e l s reflection

> fusingwiththe

>         d

>           y

>             i

>               n

>                 g lights l o o s e l y suspended before the mirrorrorrim

> at this other i am many shades

>    ove  separate   rla  distinct           pp   but    ing

>

>                         iii

> in the space between

> the land of the prideful uroboros

> is red

> plasma-red with a penchant for

> repetition reppitetion rhepuhtishun

>

>    in the soul of the serpent between -

>    gluttony mistaken for passion

>    and in befuddled innocence - absent contrition

>

> in the space between

> the sky is an obtrusive blue

> forgetful of the notion of just, just being

> and the larger airplanes dominate

> while the smaller wrestle beneath the shadow

>

>    in the body of the serpent

>    my fathers lack the foresight required to slither

>    so, in shame(noshame) effect,

>    construct feet, arms and comfortable penny loafers

>

> in the keystone of the acid lightbath -

> dishwater blinding bright

> rests the virgin's thighs from whence

> conceptualizing and awareness bounce forth

> unable to bungee back

>

>    the palette of the serpent

>    composed of congruent colors by nature

>    though, when conjoined by imperfect joints

>    - ugly mixture imported meanings indiscriminate fate -

>

>                                 iv

> i, in opposition to partake of this dying color scheme,

>                                         backwards take a step with kouros

 symmetry

>         and retrieve my slingshot

>    a series of

> pppppprrrrrroooooooojjjjjjjjjjjeeeeeeccccccctttttttttiiiiiiiiiillllllllllleeee

> eeessssssssss

> and howls rage forth

>    purging the essence of mars

>    cleansing the sky of its self-appointed interpreters

>    shattering the great white mist permeating the facade of grandeur

>

>                                         v

> in the dark i can see nothing

> there is fear; i falter in my confidence

> all i have given myself is

>

> autonomous

>

> life - a concept i wasn't willing for yet -

>

> the reflection is gone

> the lightbulbs are gone, but the darkness

> -their reflections pure and true- remain

>

> i do not move.

> i inhale the principles of this uncharted terrain.

> this glee-wary uncertainty .

>

> 11-09-97

> bhr

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:02:26 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Untitled Nightthoughts

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

very nice stuff. glad i found this as soon as i did during the hoursr

of shadow.

goodnite all.

randall

 

> untitled

>

>         i

> in the sludge waste back bathroom of the golden arches

> such is thus i find myself

>         (begrudgingly)

>

> let us cut to the middle;

>                                                 .right the than important more

 no is left the

> after fulfilling my(-oh-my) obligatory daily rhythms

>  and backing out, startled, from the stall, backwards, appalled

>   about automatic motion-sensory flush mechanisms

>         i lurch for the sink.

> (motion sensored as well)

>         to moisten the pores of my face.

>

> and upon doing so:

>

>                 ii

> the sickly lightbulbs flickered

> three   in   sight   -   one by row , three   by   column

>         the skythe      bloodthe        wedding virgin

>   in lieu of a reflecting myself

>                 (since by now i am a gazing mute)

> there is only a me - inherently dependent

>       upon the siamesetriptych

>

> my pale skin between self       u n r a v e l s reflection

> fusingwiththe

>         d

>           y

>             i

>               n

>                 g lights l o o s e l y suspended before the mirrorrorrim

> at this other i am many shades

>    ove  separate   rla  distinct           pp   but    ing

>

>                         iii

> in the space between

> the land of the prideful uroboros

> is red

> plasma-red with a penchant for

> repetition reppitetion rhepuhtishun

>

>    in the soul of the serpent between -

>    gluttony mistaken for passion

>    and in befuddled innocence - absent contrition

>

> in the space between

> the sky is an obtrusive blue

> forgetful of the notion of just, just being

> and the larger airplanes dominate

> while the smaller wrestle beneath the shadow

>

>    in the body of the serpent

>    my fathers lack the foresight required to slither

>    so, in shame(noshame) effect,

>    construct feet, arms and comfortable penny loafers

>

> in the keystone of the acid lightbath -

> dishwater blinding bright

> rests the virgin's thighs from whence

> conceptualizing and awareness bounce forth

> unable to bungee back

>

>    the palette of the serpent

>    composed of congruent colors by nature

>    though, when conjoined by imperfect joints

>    - ugly mixture imported meanings indiscriminate fate -

>

>                                 iv

> i, in opposition to partake of this dying color scheme,

>                                         backwards take a step with kouros

 symmetry

>         and retrieve my slingshot

>    a series of

> pppppprrrrrroooooooojjjjjjjjjjjeeeeeeccccccctttttttttiiiiiiiiiillllllllllleeee

> eeessssssssss

> and howls rage forth

>    purging the essence of mars

>    cleansing the sky of its self-appointed interpreters

>    shattering the great white mist permeating the facade of grandeur

>

>                                         v

> in the dark i can see nothing

> there is fear; i falter in my confidence

> all i have given myself is

>

> autonomous

>

> life - a concept i wasn't willing for yet -

>

> the reflection is gone

> the lightbulbs are gone, but the darkness

> -their reflections pure and true- remain

>

> i do not move.

> i inhale the principles of this uncharted terrain.

> this glee-wary uncertainty .

>

> 11-09-97

> bhr

>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:22:28 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Craig Sapp <ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Gary Snyder

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

greetings Beat-l people,

 

i recently came across a tape of Gary Snyder reciting

pomes with the music accompaniment of the Paul Winter

consort. called Turtle Island as many of the pieces

are from that book. the performance ca. 1979. has

anyone listened to it? he has a calm reading style, at

times quite animated.

 

what about other recordings?

 

 

 

Eric

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:17:12 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      the great novel debate

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> Subject:

>         The Great American Novel

>   Date:

>         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:22:39 -0700

>   From:

>         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

>

>

> The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:

>

> what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century American

> Novel"?

>

> I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?

>

> What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute

> something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?

>

> I figure that will be worth a try.

>

> Best,

>

> Harold Rhenisch

> rhenisch@web-trek.net

 

 

 

 

 

WHY HAS NO ONE MENTIONED 'ON THE ROAD' TO BE THE BEST NOVEL OF THE 20TH

CENTURY?????????  If you want americana, it's got it, front to back, all

facets of america is shown....

 

that would be my vote.

 

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:34:12 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Craig Sapp <ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

why the "Great American Novel" in the first place? in the vernacular its

usually referenced as a joke.

 

is there any single Great French novel? or European NOvel? or ... the

great New York novel? what about the Great Novel of the 19th Century

Written in Arkansas. is the writernessship of Americans actually

distinctly classifiable? the question of course is basically no more

than this if your taking the role of admiring reader, fan: what is your

favorite novel; if your trying to analyze literary history: what had the

most impact; or what novel attains some high conceptualization of ART,

anyhow there aint never gonna be no concensus.

 

adios,

Eric

 

ecs4m@virginia.edu

 

"reason is such a trickster"  -- Sextus Empiricus

 

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:22:39 -0700 Harold Rhenisch

<rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET> wrote:

 

> The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:

>

> what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century American

> Novel"?

>

> I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?

>

> What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute

> something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?

>

> I figure that will be worth a try.

>

> Best,

>

> Harold Rhenisch

> rhenisch@web-trek.net

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:45:40 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Craig Sapp <ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>

Subject:      super novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

somebody enthuiastically introduced "On the Road" as a

suitable candidate for the Great American Novel, and i was

too wondering why nobody previously had. while i can

certainly agree that it is one of the greatest novels of

all time, a broad class, i am not sure if it is even the

best Kerouac novel. in fact i think Desolation Angels is

better, of course VOC is up there, etc. if influence is a

reuirement maybe On the Road has an edge among the Kerouac

books.

 

in a sense, Kerouac was consciously trying to formulate a

Great Stack of American Novels, the Legend.

 

 

 

 

Eric

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:51:08 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

>should a great american novel for the 20th century ever be written,

perhaps

>it would be more the wise to wait until the 20th century in itself be

>accurately acessed to see what would fit the qualifications.

 

Perhaps the great american novel for the 20th century would do that

assessment?

 

Harold

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 01:43:25 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sad Enigma <Sadenigma@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: super novel

 

i like  the catcher in the rye.  i think it influenced alot of people and

expressed a universal feeling of unhappiness and  i guess i sorta though of

holden as like my friend after i read it.  i just really liked that book.  i

know i'm not the judge of the great american novel but for my favorite novel

that would win.

 

 

   chad

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:00:41 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Gary Snyder

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SOL.3.95.971109203545.5225B-100000@comp>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

try "the back country" which i feel is his best work.

also, "no nature" was released not long ago, which is

new and selected works.  a must read.

sorry i couldnt attend the reading.

too bad you havent paid him much attention - i hope

you will change that.

j donahue

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Donald G. Jr. Lee wrote:

 

> I just returned from a weekend trip four hours south to Hot Springs, where

> Gary Snyder did a workshop/reading Saturday.  What an amazing experience.

> I have paid less attention to him perhaps than any of the major Beats.  A

> terrific guy, wonderful reader, beautiful poet.  I am out of superlatives.

> Can anyone recommend anything to me besides, TURTLE ISLAND, which he just

> signed and I began reading tonight?  (I took my copy of DHARMA BUMS,

> though uncertain how he'd feel about signing someone else's

> book--nonetheless, it being my first exposure to him at age 15, I

> presented it. He said, "I always sign this one like so," and signed the

> title page JAPHY RYDER.  Wow.)

>

> Don Lee

> Fayetteville, Ark.

>

> "I make art about the misunderstandings that take place at the

> border zone, but for me, the border is no longer at any fixed

> geopolitical site. I carry the border with me, and I find new

> borders, wherever I go."

>                                --Guillermo Gomez-Pena

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:04:45 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Interest from the Illiterate  Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <346675C6.463B@midusa.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

your questios are well put, and will certainly give me

much to think about.  and im afraid i cant say that,

at this point, they can be anything more than

rhetorical - i dont believe there are any short

answers, so i wont even try.  but im glad you asked

them, because i believe i jumped into this discussion

with first defining my parameters...and that was

dangerous.  and although i dont think i can help bring

anything to these questions right now, i can say that

i will give them some serious thought.  and maybe ican

return to them after that.  thank you.

j donahue

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, RACE --- wrote:

 

> James Donahue wrote:

> >

> > in this question, are you asking which novel is the

> > great american novel, or are you asking about the

> > "genre" of great american novel?  the first question

> > has been asked, and is being discussed (pynchon and

> > fitzgerald being specifically named in the

> > discussion).  as to the other choice, i dont know what

> > you mean.  but i believe that we have decided on this

> > questions undecidability.  but id love to discuss

> > alternatives to the genre "novel".  but wont this

> > bring us back to the poetry/prose disctinction?  and

> > what do we do about that?

>

> i've been following this thread with my usual recognition of how very

> little i know and understand about all these ideas.  I've consistently

> said to myself -- what is a novel?  What makes it a novel rather than

> something less or more than a novel?  I honestly have no background or

> idea.  And what does Beat Generation literature do in altering the

> conceptions of the novel?  What does the Beat Generation literature do

> to determine what constitutes the great American novel -- with the

> notions of quality in connection with the novel itself?  Some have

> mentioned linearity and non-linearity -- what about the 20th Century

> suggests the need for redefinition towards the exploding (or imploding)

> of linearity?  Naked Lunch is suggested as an exemplar of 20th Century

> non-linearity but what motive pushes us towards non-linearity as a model

> of quality, and if non-linearity is a pre-requisite of quality i wonder

> about the notion of models and exemplars and if they may withstand the

> same motivations that push against linearity.  What is the difference

> between history and novel?  Between poetry and novel?  Between

> philosophy or social theory and novel?

>

> As you can see I have questions oh so many questions but very little

> background or understanding of the matter.  It seems partly a question

> of form, perhaps partly a question of substance.  I honestly haven't

> been able to tell so far from the discussion anything close to what the

> parameters of what is accepted as a novel might be.

>

> Clueless in Kansas,

>

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

> >

> > On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Harold Rhenisch wrote:

> >

> > > The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:

> > >

> > > what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century American

> > > Novel"?

> > >

> > > I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?

> > >

> > > What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute

> > > something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?

> > >

> > > I figure that will be worth a try.

> > >

> > > Best,

> > >

> > > Harold Rhenisch

> > > rhenisch@web-trek.net

> > >

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:07:33 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <B08BBFDB-17A88E@204.244.157.69>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

canonization, baby.  the only reason anything in

literature is deemed "the best."  and whether we like

it or not, we all feel the need to canonize, whether

we say something is best or worst, what we teach to

our students, or even what we buy yo read.  whether we

try to redefine the canon or stay within its

traditional bounds...uts all about deciding what is

and is not worthy of remembrance.

j donahue

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Harold Rhenisch wrote:

 

> I was asking how different readers define "The Great American Novel". It

> strikes me that if we are going to choose our favourites, we must have a

> reason for doing so, which is probably just as interesting than the

> favourite.

>

> Best,

>

>

> Harold Rhenisch

> rhenisch@web-trek.net

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:12:12 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: the great novel debate

Comments: To: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@comic.net>

In-Reply-To:  <346698D8.418B@comic.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

it was just a matter of time before it was mentioned.

and i dont think anyone will disagree on the selection.

maybe kerouac is a given in any great american writer

debate?  and to repond here to someone elses posting,

i dont see why kerouac cannot be the great american

writer.  if anyone, than him.  embracing all genres,

all modes of thought, conscious of the tradition he

was writing against, in, and for, he certainly

embodied all a writer should strive for, in all modes.

j donahue

 

On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Cathy Wilkie wrote:

 

> > Subject:

> >         The Great American Novel

> >   Date:

> >         Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:22:39 -0700

> >   From:

> >         Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>

> >

> >

> > The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:

> >

> > what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century American

> > Novel"?

> >

> > I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?

> >

> > What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute

> > something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?

> >

> > I figure that will be worth a try.

> >

> > Best,

> >

> > Harold Rhenisch

> > rhenisch@web-trek.net

>

>

>

>

>

> WHY HAS NO ONE MENTIONED 'ON THE ROAD' TO BE THE BEST NOVEL OF THE 20TH

> CENTURY?????????  If you want americana, it's got it, front to back, all

> facets of america is shown....

>

> that would be my vote.

>

> cathy

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:13:12 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Gary Snyder

In-Reply-To:  <SIMEON.9711100028.B@ecs4m95.virginia.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

could you send out the information for the rest of us

to find or order?  thanks.

j donahue

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Eric Craig Sapp wrote:

 

> greetings Beat-l people,

>

> i recently came across a tape of Gary Snyder reciting

> pomes with the music accompaniment of the Paul Winter

> consort. called Turtle Island as many of the pieces

> are from that book. the performance ca. 1979. has

> anyone listened to it? he has a calm reading style, at

> times quite animated.

>

> what about other recordings?

>

>

>

> Eric

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:14:05 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <SIMEON.9711100012.C@ecs4m95.virginia.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

we ask, and its all mark twains fault...

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Eric Craig Sapp wrote:

 

> why the "Great American Novel" in the first place? in the vernacular its

> usually referenced as a joke.

>

> is there any single Great French novel? or European NOvel? or ... the

> great New York novel? what about the Great Novel of the 19th Century

> Written in Arkansas. is the writernessship of Americans actually

> distinctly classifiable? the question of course is basically no more

> than this if your taking the role of admiring reader, fan: what is your

> favorite novel; if your trying to analyze literary history: what had the

> most impact; or what novel attains some high conceptualization of ART,

> anyhow there aint never gonna be no concensus.

>

> adios,

> Eric

>

> ecs4m@virginia.edu

>

> "reason is such a trickster"  -- Sextus Empiricus

>

>

> On Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:22:39 -0700 Harold Rhenisch

> <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET> wrote:

>

> > The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:

> >

> > what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century American

> > Novel"?

> >

> > I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?

> >

> > What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute

> > something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?

> >

> > I figure that will be worth a try.

> >

> > Best,

> >

> > Harold Rhenisch

> > rhenisch@web-trek.net

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:23:31 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Marcos L. Chavarri" <mlopez@EUROPAMC.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 

One of the best authors is not a books writer.

I am talking about William Eisner. You know he is not a beat, that is what

i think.

He did the best comic i have never read THE SPIRIT. it was pure black

cinema.

I have read another publications from him In the Eye of the Storm &

Contract with God

I know comic is not very popular but i think Will Eisner is one of the

greatest of this century.

Marcos L. Chavarri

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 02:27:33 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Interest from the Illiterate  Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

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James Donahue wrote:

>

> your questios are well put, and will certainly give me

> much to think about.  and im afraid i cant say that,

> at this point, they can be anything more than

> rhetorical - i dont believe there are any short

> answers, so i wont even try.  but im glad you asked

> them, because i believe i jumped into this discussion

> with first defining my parameters...and that was

> dangerous.  and although i dont think i can help bring

> anything to these questions right now, i can say that

> i will give them some serious thought.  and maybe ican

> return to them after that.  thank you.

> j donahue

>

 

Damn!  I was really hoping there were easy answers to these questions.

oh well....

 

still cold in Kansas ... i will hybernate again.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

 

> On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, RACE --- wrote:

>

> > James Donahue wrote:

> > >

> > > in this question, are you asking which novel is the

> > > great american novel, or are you asking about the

> > > "genre" of great american novel?  the first question

> > > has been asked, and is being discussed (pynchon and

> > > fitzgerald being specifically named in the

> > > discussion).  as to the other choice, i dont know what

> > > you mean.  but i believe that we have decided on this

> > > questions undecidability.  but id love to discuss

> > > alternatives to the genre "novel".  but wont this

> > > bring us back to the poetry/prose disctinction?  and

> > > what do we do about that?

> >

> > i've been following this thread with my usual recognition of how very

> > little i know and understand about all these ideas.  I've consistently

> > said to myself -- what is a novel?  What makes it a novel rather than

> > something less or more than a novel?  I honestly have no background or

> > idea.  And what does Beat Generation literature do in altering the

> > conceptions of the novel?  What does the Beat Generation literature do

> > to determine what constitutes the great American novel -- with the

> > notions of quality in connection with the novel itself?  Some have

> > mentioned linearity and non-linearity -- what about the 20th Century

> > suggests the need for redefinition towards the exploding (or imploding)

> > of linearity?  Naked Lunch is suggested as an exemplar of 20th Century

> > non-linearity but what motive pushes us towards non-linearity as a model

> > of quality, and if non-linearity is a pre-requisite of quality i wonder

> > about the notion of models and exemplars and if they may withstand the

> > same motivations that push against linearity.  What is the difference

> > between history and novel?  Between poetry and novel?  Between

> > philosophy or social theory and novel?

> >

> > As you can see I have questions oh so many questions but very little

> > background or understanding of the matter.  It seems partly a question

> > of form, perhaps partly a question of substance.  I honestly haven't

> > been able to tell so far from the discussion anything close to what the

> > parameters of what is accepted as a novel might be.

> >

> > Clueless in Kansas,

> >

> > david rhaesa

> > salina, Kansas

> > >

> > > On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Harold Rhenisch wrote:

> > >

> > > > The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:

> > > >

> > > > what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century American

> > > > Novel"?

> > > >

> > > > I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?

> > > >

> > > > What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute

> > > > something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?

> > > >

> > > > I figure that will be worth a try.

> > > >

> > > > Best,

> > > >

> > > > Harold Rhenisch

> > > > rhenisch@web-trek.net

> > > >

> >

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 02:30:10 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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James Donahue wrote:

>

> we ask, and its all mark twains fault...

>

 

maybe Huckelberry Finn can be the great 20th century american novel in

reprint <grin>

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:13:58 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      mr maher's narcissim

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote: (snip)

 

> I have no "genre." What I do have is an impulsive delight in playing with

> words, any words, that lay before me in a most horrible turgid manner. They,

> the very instruments of my fancy abused to the point of recklessness. They

> pitted into cliches and sucked out left bloodless and void of insight and

> meaning. I seize these words and turn them on their backs with their legs

> grasping at thin air like turtles upended by a cruel child, and I watch them

> struggle feebly, disabled momentarily. I assume the chance to solicit the

> very response I take the time to engender.

 

___________i take it from this that this attitude toward the pomes you parodied

from list members on the list implies that they were turgid, and therfore free

game to 'play' with and insult list poets. your very imagery if you care to look

up, is violent smug and nasty.there is no excuse for doing what you do to

 other's

words.

 

again you wrote:

"My

existential obsession is constantly to mimetize myslef."

-__________so as this is in continued and every grandiose rationalization for

having tromped on other's words AND feelings, i guess you think that others are

you. how long have you had this feeling or thought that you were king of the

universe?

 

i swore i wouldn't get back into this gnarly mess, but it drives me wild to see

someone  continue to fatten their ego in the face of requests to stop sniping at

others on the list.

watch out, mr maher, you're about to fall into that pond and drown.

i believe you abuse and not use your signature quote:

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

 

                                        Henry David Thoreau

i do believe that henry did mean that this gives license to act without manners

 or

care for the feelings of others.

sincerely

mc

 

 

 

>    Alas, the universe is a whole. How can that be denied? Just as man

> breathes eighteen times a minute, or 25,920 times a day, the equinoctial

> point of the sun runs through the zodiac once in every 25,920 years. Our

> hearts beat only one-fourth as fast as our lungs breathe, just as the speed

> of the propagation of air is four times greater than a film that records the

> variety of the phenomena of the universe. I am convinced that I am of this

> world itself, that I embody the living nucleus of the landscape. My

> existential obsession is constantly to mimetize myslef. Like it, I am a

> cathedral of strength with a nimbus of dreamlike delirium. My granite

> structure is equipped with ductilities, haze, glint, quicksands, that hide

> its needles, its craters, its promontories, the better to let me keep my

> secrets.  P.

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:39:59 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      it was a dark and stormy night

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

my vote goes to the inimitable snoopy typing his great american novel on

the top of his doghouse.

mc

just kidding, mostly, partly, ahhh i am just getting silly over this

whole thread ...

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:48:26 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <3466C612.7D99@midusa.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

sure, and while we are at it, lets not forget poe and

all his rules for decent prose...at least then we will

have something to go by...

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, RACE --- wrote:

 

> James Donahue wrote:

> >

> > we ask, and its all mark twains fault...

> >

>

> maybe Huckelberry Finn can be the great 20th century american novel in

> reprint <grin>

>

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:51:33 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: it was a dark and stormy night

In-Reply-To:  <199711101241.HAA02407@pike.sover.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

it was a dark and stormy night when we began this

discussion (at least in brockton, anyway).

maybe its time we found something else to discuss.

anybody feel like talking about kerouac?

by the way, somebody told me about a new recording

that came out a year (?) ago, with modern poets and

musicians reading kerouacs works.  does ahybody know

if this exists, and how i might get a copy?

james donahue

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> my vote goes to the inimitable snoopy typing his great american novel on

> the top of his doghouse.

> mc

> just kidding, mostly, partly, ahhh i am just getting silly over this

> whole thread ...

> mc

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:48:00 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      GAN

 

Don't want to beat this subject to death but several interesting

questions have been raised.  Why a great American novel vs european etc.

My feeling is that it's part of capitalist competition motive and

American quest to champion opportunities of Individual.   It's not just

good enough to do something well, you've got to be the best whether

you're Ernest Hemingway, Bernie Williams, or Bill Gates.  Hemingway

often compared himself to other writers (usually using boxing

metaphors); Kerouac wanted to outdo Shakespeare.  Of course, the whole

notion of a Great American Novel is silly but look how much fun people

on the list have discussing it.  I don't think they'll ever be ONE Great

American Novel but certainly a number of books mentioned fit into a

"genre" or "sub-genre" of that type:  The Great Gatsby, On The Road (I'd

include Town & the City too), Huck Finn, Moby Dick, and, if it's not

cheating, John Dos Passos' USA trilogy, which I believe influenced

Kerouac a good deal, though I can't prove it.    I think the great

American novel has to embody the contradictions that characterize the

American dream -- has to capture the spirit that led Americans to

believe that they could "make it new,"  and dramatize how America lives

with its failed expectations.  From my point of view, it doesn't matter

whether or not the novel is linear or not, whether it's symbolic or

realistic or a historical saga -- so long as it grapples with the above

situation.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:35:13 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: it was a dark and stormy night

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

James Donahue wrote:

>

> it was a dark and stormy night when we began this

> discussion (at least in brockton, anyway).

> maybe its time we found something else to discuss.

> anybody feel like talking about kerouac?

> by the way, somebody told me about a new recording

> that came out a year (?) ago, with modern poets and

> musicians reading kerouacs works.  does ahybody know

> if this exists, and how i might get a copy?

> james donahue

>

> On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

>

> > my vote goes to the inimitable snoopy typing his great american novel on

> > the top of his doghouse.

> > mc

> > just kidding, mostly, partly, ahhh i am just getting silly over this

> > whole thread ...

> > mc

> >

Kerouac - Kicks Joy Darkness

 

RCD#10329

 

Rykodisc USA, Shetland Park, 27 Congress Street, Sale, MA 09170

 

or

 

Rykodisc Ltd. 78 Stanley Gardens, London W3 7SZ UK

 

david

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:32:58 -0000

Reply-To:     dcaridade@geocities.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         dcaridade <dcaridade@GEOCITIES.COM>

Subject:      Changing my email address

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Sorry about bothering all of you with this, but I've been having some

trouble with my current email address, does anyone know how can I change my

email in this list?

Should I subscribe again under another address? Or is there an easier way?

 

Thanks, and my apologies (again) for the bother...

daniel caridade

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:44:21 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: it was a dark and stormy night

 

James, it's called "kicks, joy, darkness".  Borders, Virgin and Tower all

carry it here.

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James Donahue

Sent:   Monday, November 10, 1997 8:51 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: it was a dark and stormy night

 

it was a dark and stormy night when we began this

discussion (at least in brockton, anyway).

maybe its time we found something else to discuss.

anybody feel like talking about kerouac?

by the way, somebody told me about a new recording

that came out a year (?) ago, with modern poets and

musicians reading kerouacs works.  does ahybody know

if this exists, and how i might get a copy?

james donahue

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> my vote goes to the inimitable snoopy typing his great american novel on

> the top of his doghouse.

> mc

> just kidding, mostly, partly, ahhh i am just getting silly over this

> whole thread ...

> mc

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:55:20 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: GAN

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997111010053370@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

beat-l'ers

i just thought that i would throw my hat into the fray a lttle bit and

reply to some of the below ...

i think that the great american novel changes depending on the decade and

the poopular beliefs that you are examining the book thru and as

reflecting (for instance, some would argue that "sometimes a great

notion" or "on the road" or" the great gatsby" or "naked lunch" or "the

sun also rises" or... is the

GAN, but each reflects a different era and way of looking at america. for

instance was 'naked lunch" even conceivable when "the great gatsby" was

written?)

        the novel has gone thru a great amount of changes, in my opinion,

esp since the creation of the "modern novel" (be that the effect of

joyce's _ulysses_ and woolf's _mrs.dalloway_) and can pre and post "modern

novel" novels be measured together? can any two genres be compared?

        and on another note altogether - from what i understand, BIll,

while i cant think of any reference that kerouac made to DosPassos and the

USA Trilogy, i know that BUrroughs thought of it as a great influence and

i do belive refered to it as a precursor to the cut-up and filmic

techniques that he used later on (ask neil hennessy abt the filmic

techniques of wsburroughs...)

        does any one else know more abt Dos Passos and his influence on

beat lit?

yrs

derek

 On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

 

>

> Don't want to beat this subject to death but several interesting

> questions have been raised.  Why a great American novel vs european etc.

> My feeling is that it's part of capitalist competition motive and

> American quest to champion opportunities of Individual.   It's not just

> good enough to do something well, you've got to be the best whether

> you're Ernest Hemingway, Bernie Williams, or Bill Gates.  Hemingway

> often compared himself to other writers (usually using boxing

> metaphors); Kerouac wanted to outdo Shakespeare.  Of course, the whole

> notion of a Great American Novel is silly but look how much fun people

> on the list have discussing it.  I don't think they'll ever be ONE Great

> American Novel but certainly a number of books mentioned fit into a

> "genre" or "sub-genre" of that type:  The Great Gatsby, On The Road (I'd

> include Town & the City too), Huck Finn, Moby Dick, and, if it's not

> cheating, John Dos Passos' USA trilogy, which I believe influenced

> Kerouac a good deal, though I can't prove it.    I think the great

> American novel has to embody the contradictions that characterize the

> American dream -- has to capture the spirit that led Americans to

> believe that they could "make it new,"  and dramatize how America lives

> with its failed expectations.  From my point of view, it doesn't matter

> whether or not the novel is linear or not, whether it's symbolic or

> realistic or a historical saga -- so long as it grapples with the above

> situation.

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:01:01 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>

Subject:      kerouac:kicks, joy, darkness

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 

James,

  The Kerouac recording you're thinking of is probably "Kerouac:

Kicks, Joy, Darkness," a CD including the likes of Patti Smith,

Michael Stipe, and others reading Kerouac's pomes. As far as I know,

it's widely available, just go to your local music store and ask for

it. I know for sure that it's available through CDNow, whose web site

is at www.cdnow

      Maggie G.

 

 

 

__________________________________________________________________

Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:06:28 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: kerouac:kicks, joy, darkness

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Maggie Gerrity wrote:

>

> James,

>   The Kerouac recording you're thinking of is probably "Kerouac:

> Kicks, Joy, Darkness," a CD including the likes of Patti Smith,

> Michael Stipe, and others reading Kerouac's pomes. As far as I know,

> it's widely available, just go to your local music store and ask for

> it. I know for sure that it's available through CDNow, whose web site

> is at www.cdnow

>       Maggie G.

>

 

CD Now is also accessible from Keith's Beat web page

 

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

 

throw something on the Wall while you're passing through.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

 

> __________________________________________________________________

> Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:42:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: kerouac:kicks, joy, darkness

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:06 AM 11/10/97 -0600, you wrote:

>Maggie Gerrity wrote:

>>

>> James,

>>   The Kerouac recording you're thinking of is probably "Kerouac:

>> Kicks, Joy, Darkness," a CD including the likes of Patti Smith,

>> Michael Stipe, and others reading Kerouac's pomes. As far as I know,

>> it's widely available, just go to your local music store and ask for

>> it. I know for sure that it's available through CDNow, whose web site

>> is at www.cdnow

>>       Maggie G.

>>

>

>CD Now is also accessible from Keith's Beat web page

>

>http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

>

As well as The Kerouac Quarterly:

 

  http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

>throw something on the Wall while you're passing through.

>

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

>

>> __________________________________________________________________

>> Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com

>

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:49:16 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Great American Novel

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.PCW.3.91.971110030541.10622C-100000@donahujl.bc.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

To hell with the canon! I remember talking about this in high school and

how the canon was so lacking in diversity. I used to feel that there were

certain books that I had to read in order to be well-read but now, I know

better. I read everything...

 

 

 

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, James Donahue wrote:

 

> canonization, baby.  the only reason anything in

> literature is deemed "the best."  and whether we like

> it or not, we all feel the need to canonize, whether

> we say something is best or worst, what we teach to

> our students, or even what we buy yo read.  whether we

> try to redefine the canon or stay within its

> traditional bounds...uts all about deciding what is

> and is not worthy of remembrance.

> j donahue

>

> On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Harold Rhenisch wrote:

>

> > I was asking how different readers define "The Great American Novel". It

> > strikes me that if we are going to choose our favourites, we must have a

> > reason for doing so, which is probably just as interesting than the

> > favourite.

> >

> > Best,

> >

> >

> > Harold Rhenisch

> > rhenisch@web-trek.net

> >

>

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:57:03 -0800

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Gary Snyder

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Donald,

 

Nice to make the discovery of Snyder, who comes up off and on and the

list but is still often ignored on this list.  Were we to check back in

in 50 years or so (which is unlikely for some of us) I would not be

suprised to see GS seen as the most important of the Beat poets.

 

I became addicted to Snyder through "Myths and Texts" and "Rip Rap"

which are early, close to the Japhy Ryder stuff.  One should obviously

get his new magnum opus "Mountains and Rivers".

 

J. Stauffer

 

Donald G. Jr. Lee wrote:

 

> Can anyone recommend anything to me besides, TURTLE ISLAND, which he just

> signed and I began reading tonight?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 01:17:23 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: GAN

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> I think the great

> American novel has to embody the contradictions that characterize the

> American dream -- has to capture the spirit that led Americans to

> believe that they could "make it new,"  and dramatize how America lives

> with its failed expectations.  From my point of view, it doesn't matter

> whether or not the novel is linear or not, whether it's symbolic or

> realistic or a historical saga -- so long as it grapples with the above

> situation.

 

I would agree that what I would hesitantly call. the great American

novel, must deal with the American spirit and the American dream.  It

also goes back to Kerouac's ideas of genius and the fact that at some

point a writer will emerge whose genius will be so apparent that he or

she will take writing to somewhere it has never gone before.  And the

time will emerge when this writer is an American. This is strictly of

course a personal assessment on my part but no writer that can do this

has risen from America or any other country since James Joyce.  Finnegans

Wake took both language and the possibilities of human thought beyond

where they had ever gone before and no one today has had the depth to go

beyond Finnegans Wake.  There are those that even today label Finnegans

Wake as unreadable and whoever makes the next breakthrough in literature

will probably also be characterized as unreadable.  It would also not be

appropriate to think that someone would write the "American" Finnegans

Wake, for that would only be an attempt once again to imitate what has

been done.  But to relate this to beat writers, I do think that we can

call Allen Ginsberg, the greatest American poet of this century.  He

broke through traditional ideas of poetry to create a new foundation on

which poetry will grow, he crashed through the ideas and boundaries that

had limited poetry to forever put it on a new plane.  As for what a novel

is, the most you can say today is that is is prose placed between two

covers.  The tradition notions of character, development, and plot will

never exist again.  Now given Kerouac's own definition of genius I would

venture to say he thought of himself as one for initiating spontaneous

prose.  I love reading Kerouac and there is no question that you could

pick up anything he has written, and say in a few moments, "yes, Kerouac

wrote this."  I believe that he did want to be the greatest American

writer of this century and that he wanted his canon of works to represent

that.  But I believe he failed (and I'm sure this can lead to much

discussion) because, although his writing deals with universal themes and

feelings, it fails on an intellectual level to encompass the totality of

human experience.  And it is perhaps his devotion to the spontaneous that

brought this about.  He really did nothing other than write a semi-stream

of consciousness that was spontaneous.  No doubt he thought Visions of

Cody to be his most ambitious effort because he did try to incorporate

dream and instantaneous recorded thought and build something.  You can

see his admiration of both Joyce and Proust in it but his own creation

did not break open any new boundaries.  Burroughs, on the other hand, had

a more intellectual type of genius, and his work skirted the boundaries

and capabilities of language.  He, however, did not have the knack of

applying his ideas with a universal appeal to make him "the" novelist of

this century.  Ideally, perhaps his mind combined with Kerouac's

readability would have come close.  So to end my argument, I would say

that the next great "American" novelist will deal with American

consciousness and a universal unconscious, and he or she will "craft"

something that will go beyond anything that has been written before, and

that means in terms of writing it will develop the next level beyond

Finnegans Wake.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:51:08 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: it was a dark and stormy night

In-Reply-To:  <346729B1.679D@midusa.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

thank you much.

 

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:35:13 -0600 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

 

>James Donahue wrote:

>>

>> it was a dark and stormy night when we began this

>> discussion (at least in brockton, anyway).

>> maybe its time we found something else to discuss.

>> anybody feel like talking about kerouac?

>> by the way, somebody told me about a new recording

>> that came out a year (?) ago, with modern poets and

>> musicians reading kerouacs works.  does ahybody know

>> if this exists, and how i might get a copy?

>> james donahue

>>

>> On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

>>

>> > my vote goes to the inimitable snoopy typing his great american novel on

>> > the top of his doghouse.

>> > mc

>> > just kidding, mostly, partly, ahhh i am just getting silly over this

>> > whole thread ...

>> > mc

>> >

>Kerouac - Kicks Joy Darkness

>

>RCD#10329

>

>Rykodisc USA, Shetland Park, 27 Congress Street, Sale, MA 09170

>

>or

>

>Rykodisc Ltd. 78 Stanley Gardens, London W3 7SZ UK

>

>david

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:45:36 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Kerouac and Reading (was Re: GAN)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Diane Carter wrote:

> You can

> see his admiration of both Joyce and Proust in it but his own creation

> did not break open any new boundaries.

> DC

 

i'm definitely not ready to drop the notion of the GAN quest (i'm

formulating quite a few strings and ethereal amuricanism which hopefully

will meld in a foundry cauldron over the coming days to suggest

concerning these)....

 

BUT,

these words from Diane made me realize something which i hadn't thought

about before and which i'd love to know more about.

 

How did Kerouac read?  When did he read?

 

I've read much about his methods and disciplines in writing (and am

still frankly in awe of his focus -- oh that i could get some Ritalin

prescribed <grin>)

 

I've read quite a bit about the heated discussions between he and other

Beat "characters" about literature -- wolfeans and anti-wolfeans (as

opposed to Woolfeans and anti-Woolfeans i suppose).

 

BUT

I've not heard much accounting for his practices and habits concerning

Reading itself.

 

I'd be interested for those "in the know" to tell a bit about his

reading phases and when, what, where, how, etc. he devoured the

literature he grounded his writings in.

 

Hope lots of you have input.

 

The sun is shining again in Kansas.  A lovely day indeed.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:09:03 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tom <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject:      Erotic in Burroughs (esp. Naked Lunch)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-type: MULTIPART/MIXED; boundary="Part9711101703A"

 

--Part9711101703A

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET="US-ASCII"

 

 

 

Just a followup to my posting about the erotic in WSB.

I just finshed my essay!  Hurrah!  A whole ten mintues in front  of the

 deadline!

I've attached a copy incase anyone's interested.

Love to the whole world (I'm so happy - I've been working on the damn thing all

week).

Peace.

 

Tom. H.

http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

"Langauge is a virus."

 

--Part9711101703A

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