Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 00:11:13 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Dennis Cardwell <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: the scary WSB

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

In a message dated 1/31/98 7:50:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, bonmark@WEBTV.NET

(mark ricard) writes:

> First off if a teenage boy consented for sex with a older man it is not

> wrong. Homosexual intercourse with teenage boys was common in Greece and

> many of other parts of the world. If they consent to it's not wrong.

> Secondly sex with a teenage boy is different than that of a prepubesent

> child. A young child is totaly nonacceptable. A teenager is

> physiologicaly ready for sexual intercourse. A young child is not. As

> far as I know William S. Burroughs only had sex with teenage boys.

> Therfore he is not a pedophile. Reading this I hope you will see the

> idot is you,Denny. I hope this was enlightening for you.

I'm stunned...what is the proper response to a post such as this? When I

called this fool an idiot earlier in the day, apparently I gave him far too

much credit. He would have to study many years to BECOME an idiot.

Dennis

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 00:51:59 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>

Subject: Wittgenstein, Derrida, all those guys and the Beats

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

I've really been trying to follow all the postmodern analyses of WSB and

others posted by scholars on this list. And while I do not wish to piss anyone

off, I'm sure I will by posting this postmodern version of The Lord's Prayer,

which, while not strictly coded, is certainly an exercise in language.

What kind of exercise, I'll let others decide. --Maggie

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

-- --

Our Reification of Patriarchal Authority, who can be said to inhabit the

positively valorized polarity of the metaphysical sphere, privileged be thy

signifier. Thy societal structure achieve hegemony, the enactment of thy

desire be manifested, throughout the axis represented by the physical-

metaphysical dichotomy. Empower us this day with the means of material

production, and refuse to enforce sanctions against our transgressive

subversions of moral perspective, as we refuse to delegitimize the moral

perspective of the Other. Refer us not to the thetical term of the dialectics

of desire, but liberate us from the intrinsically limiting concept of "evil."

For thine is the hegemony, and the dominance, and the culturally determined

mystification thereof, within the entire continuum of the Western concept of

linear time. Amyn.

(By Roger Giner-Sorolla)

>From "The Door" magazine, March/April 1996 #146.

-- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - --

No wonder I dint unnerstand what youse guys wuz tawkin about.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-MSMail-Priority: Normal

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 00:18:25 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject: Re: kicks joy darkness

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Maggie wrote:

> Can anyone point me in the direction of anymore Beat recordings?

> I've heard of several box sets, including one for Allen Ginsberg, but

> have yet encountered any in stores. Any help would be appreciated.

Definitely pick up "Holy Soul Jelly Roll" (Ginsberg), "The Jack Kerouac

Collection" (all three of his albums released in the 1950s, with bonus

tracks), and "The Beat Generation" (all three sets are on the Rhino/Word

Beat label).

There is also a set on Fantasy named something like "Howls, Raps, Rips, &

Roars" which I haven't heard yet.

Jym

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 01:40:36 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>

Subject: Re: the scary WSB

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

What makes you such a moral authority, Denny? I would love to know what

you do for a living passing off smartass comments like that?

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 01:49:28 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>

Subject: Re: Wittgenstein, Derrida, all those guys and the Beats

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Much of Burroughs work is similar to deconstructionism and Wittgenstien.

I don't whetever he directly influcened by them or by Korbynski(who

himself ripped off Wittgenstein). I'm going for the latter. WSB was

trying to show the lanugage controls perception and thinking and/or

cultural values. It has a touch of mystiscm to it.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 01:55:31 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>

Subject: WSB and The Third Mind

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Does anyone know anything about WSB and Brion Gysin's book The Third

Mind? I know it talks about the theory of cut-ups.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 02:01:57 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>

Subject: Re: WSB and pedophilia?

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Burroughs did mention having sex with teenage boys(16 year old) in the

Yage Letters. I think it was in Columbia. It's nothing I would do(to any

man or boy). When does one become a adult? I not one yet. haha.....

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 02:12:15 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject: Re: WSB and pedophilia?

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Maggie-

Thanks. Now, can we stop talking about this? Please?

On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Maggie Dharma wrote:

> In a message dated 31-Jan-98 7:50:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> bonmark@WEBTV.NET writes:

> << First off if a teenage boy consented for sex with a older man it is not

> wrong. Homosexual intercourse with teenage boys was common in Greece >>

> Mark,

> This is a difficult topic to make generalizations about, but I think if some

> are going to be made, they should be made in favor of childhood, however long

> that lasts, and also in favor of better, more mature judgment on the part of

> adults.

> A lot of teenaged girls are of legal age, sexually speaking, but they are not

> in full possession of the maturity required to make decisions about sexual

> consent. As a result, many are exploited and a whole shitload get pregnant.

> Except for the pregnant part, the identical is true for teenaged boys.

> There are also a lot of reasons why kids might consent to sex or actually be

> groomed for sex with older people. Many of those reasons are self-destructive,

> or relate to low self-esteem or a life-pattern of sexual abuse and/or

> exploitation.

> Your average teenage kid, if sexually active, is looking for a partner who's

> on the same level. A child who seeks out an adult for sex is probably not

> really seeking sex, but to fulfill some horrible prophecy about him or herself

> that was learned in childhood abusive situations. It's just not natural for

> people of such vast age differences WHERE THE LEVEL OF MATURITY AND POWER is

> so inequitable for sex to exist. Nor, in my opinion, is it good.

> What I'm saying is that if two people have sex, there should be completely

> equal awareness of what is happening. Otherwise, it's not truly "consenting."

> A person who hasn't even qualified for a driver's license or is not yet

> considered mature enough to cast a vote should also not be a candidate for sex

> with someone significantly older. That's predatory.

> Lastly, adults should know better. Even if a child wanted to have sex, or

> appeared to want to have sex, a mature, rational adult response would be to

> say, "I'm flattered, but this is the only time you have to be a kid and it

> will never come again. I'm not going to take that away from you."

> It's something best judged on a case-by-case basis, of course, but Lolita was

> not for real; just the fantasy of dirty old men. A child is a child, and there

> is no magic age when that stops and adulthood begins, even though a rip-

> roaring, hormone-driven sex drive may also exist. It's much more complicated

> than the argument you've laid out here, I think.

> Speaking from stolen innocence here,

> Maggie

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 02:16:03 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject: Re: kicks joy darkness

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

HolySoulJellyRoll or whatever its called and theres this big-ass CD

Collection called The Beat Generation.

On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Maggie Gerrity wrote:

> I just borrowed a friend's copy of "Kicks Joy Darkness" and am

> totally mesmerized by it. I'd never heard any recitations of Kerouac's

> work prior to this, and suffice to say that my blank canvas has been

> sufficiently colored by this incredible work.

> The body of artists collected on "KJD" is so diverse, from the lead

> singer of Aerosmith (?!--about as non-Beat as I could possibly think

> of) to perennial Beat-influenced artists like Michael Stipe and Patti

> Smith; though each selection on the album is so vastly different, all

> of them embody Kerouac's spontaneity and raw emotion.

> I especially like Stipe's version of "My Gang," Richard Lewis'

> "America's New Trinity of Love: Dean, Brando, Presley," and Ginsberg's

> enthusiastic full-force recitation of "The Brooklyn Bridge Blues

> (Choruses 1-9).

> For anyone of the list who hasn't heard "KJD" yet, definitely go out

> and pick up a copy. It's a great mix of jazz, spoken word, and the

> Beat Spirit.

> Can anyone point me in the direction of anymore Beat recordings?

> I've heard of several box sets, including one for Allen Ginsberg, but

> have yet encountered any in stores. Any help would be appreciated.

> Maggie G.

> ==

> "In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz

> _________________________________________________________

> DO YOU YAHOO!?

> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 02:21:40 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>

Subject: Re: WSB and pedophilia?

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Do not think I am not creeped by the idea of WSB having sex with teenage

boys. I am!!! I just want to explore every angle from a historical and

cultural viewpoint. I am 18 years old. By law an adult but still a

child.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Sender: cake@ionline.net

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 03:56:39 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: the scary WSB/"highly academic pseudo-language"

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

At 04:27 PM 1/31/98 -0600, cathy wrote:

<snip>

>I thought burroughs voice sounded nice, so i started paying

>more attention to what people were saying about him on here.

>MOst of the conversations, especially the wittgenstein-burroughs

>discussion, was compleeeettly over my head. But the

>recent discussion has made sense to me.

>I'm smarter than your average bear, that's for sure, but

>i never went to grad school, and i resent the people

>who act like they know 'oh-so-much-more' than other

>people, the prententious people. They unconciously

>exclude people like me who want to learn, who want

>to know more, but can't understand their highly academic >pseudo-language.

I can understand most concepts,

>having it put in layperson's terms helps me at

>times.

>So: i've stated i'm here to learn, i've stated my

>ignorance on burroughs, i've stated how you have

>to talk to me in order for me to understand. Anyone

>out there wanna teach me more about burroughs?????

Ok, I'd like to say a couple things about the recent

rantings of people regarding "highly academic pseudo-

language." First of all, this list is supposed to be a

*discussion* list. That means the "highly academic

pseudo-language" (that usually relates directly to one

of the "beat" authors) is just as acceptable as the

chatline, non-list related conversations that seem

to dominate most posts. In regards to your concerns about not

understanding these discussions, I never saw one

post from you asking the authors of those posts for

some kind of clarification. No, instead we get a

post that condemns anyone who makes an

"intellectual" query/hypothesis, and are at fault

for your not "understanding" the concepts. The

fact that you are asking for help and are making

a request that someone "teach" you more about

Burroughs is great. It's your choice of approach that

turns me off (personally), a simple "can someone please

explain this theory" would suffice, and would be a more

positive/proactive way to achieve help.

Mike

To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@gpnet.it>

Subject: Syd Barrett.

Cc:

Bcc:

X-Attachments:

In-Reply-To: <78676fc9.34d3777d@aol.com>

References:

EFFERVESCING ELEPHANT (written when Syd was 16)

An Effervescing Elephant

with tiny eyes and great big trunk

once whispered to the tiny ear

the ear of one inferior

that by next June he'd die, oh yeah!

because the tiger would roam.

The little one said: 'Oh my goodness I must stay at home!

and every time I hear a growl

I'll know the tiger's on the prowl

and I'll be really safe, you know

the elephant he told me so.'

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 04:58:37 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: the scary WSB/"highly academic pseudo-language"

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

In a message dated 01-Feb-98 12:57:58 AM Pacific Standard Time,

cake@IONLINE.NET writes:

<< That means the "highly academic

pseudo-language" (that usually relates directly to one

of the "beat" authors) is just as acceptable as the

chatline, non-list related conversations that seem

to dominate most posts. In regards to your concerns about not

understanding these discussions, I never saw one

post from you asking the authors of those posts for

some kind of clarification. >>

In my opinion, the so-called academic posts that offer analyses of, for

instance, the writing of WSB, are so arcane and (sorry) pompous-sounding that

I can't figure out what point the writer is trying to make. And I'm not

entirely sure, by any stretch of the imagination, that what the writer IS

saying, if I COULD understand it, would be an accurate analytical conclusion.

A friend of mine wrote a dissertation, which I indexed and edited for him. It

was full of big words like "epistomology" "dialectic" and oblique references

to Hegel. I couldn't understand what point he was trying to make. He said, "It

doesn't matter. With a dissertation, you get 'paid' by the word."

I've never read a scholarly piece (or a writ of law) that didn't contain twice

the number of words needed to make a point, and whose words were even remotely

"user-friendly." Frankly, it's bad writing--VERY bad writing.

Let me underscore my point with an excerpt from a spoof of postmodernism (same

source for the Lord's Prayer I posted earlier):

Perhaps you would like to join in conversation with your local mandarins of

cultural theory and all-purpose deep thinking, but you don't know what to say.

Or, when you do contribute something you consider relevant, even insightful,

you get ignored or looked at with pity. Here is a quick guide, then, to

speaking and writing postmodern.

First, you need to remember that plainly expressed language is out of the

question. It is too realist, modernist and obvious. Postmodern language

requires that one uses play, parody and indeterminacy as critical techniques

to point this out. Often this is quite a difficult requirement, so obscurity

is a well-acknowledged substitute. For example, let's imagine you want to say

something like, "We should listen to the views of people outside of Western

society in order to learn about the cultural biases that affect us". This is

honest but dull. Take the word "views". Postmodernspeak would change that to

"voices", or better, "vocalities", or even better, "multivocalities". Add an

adjective like "intertextual", and you're covered. "People outside" is also

too plain. How about "postcolonial others"? To speak postmodern properly one

must master a bevy of biases besides the familiar racism, sexism, ageism, etc.

For example, phallogocentricism (male-centredness combined with rationalistic

forms of binary logic). Finally "affect us" sounds like plaid pyjamas. Use

more obscure verbs and phrases, like "mediate our identities". So, the final

statement should say, "We should listen to the intertextual, multivocalities

of postcolonial others outside of Western culture in order to learn about the

phallogocentric biases that mediate our identities". Now you're talking

postmodern!

The author of this completely hilarious piece is Richard Holmes. He managed to

express wittily what I have found annoying about "scholarly analyses,"

including disciples of Derrida and Wittgenstein. Earlier, I'd tried to slog

through a piece by Lyotard, and I found myself wondering what the hell he was

talking about.

I know I will be mightily flamed for this, but I'll go on record right now as

saying I don't wish to suppress your posts at all. They do, by virtue of the

way they're written, exclude me from understanding them, but as you say, this

is a discussion list, and they do get discussed by kindred spirits.

I think what Cathy said in an earlier post, and what I've said in other posts,

is that we ain't exactly chimps, but neither of us can understand what you're

saying. I will add that it feels like you don't really WANT people like me to

understand what you're saying, or you don't care if your words are only

comprehensible to a few others. Otherwise, you'd write in simpler terms so the

masses could understand.

It's just my opinion. My opinion on this is no more or less valuable than

yours, but I needed to express it--plainly.

Writing from the point of view of someone who never went to college, but loves

to read--

maggie

Return-Path: <MAILER-DAEMON>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 05:01:53 -0500

From:

"L-Soft list server at The City University of NY (1.8c)" <LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Message ("Your message dated Sun, 01 Feb 1998 10:48:23...")

To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Your message dated Sun, 01 Feb 1998 10:48:23 +0100 with subject "Syd

Barrett." has been successfully distributed to the BEAT-L list (263

recipients).

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:14:38 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject: Excerpt from '714'

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Excerpt from "714", a novel by Jeffrey Scott Holland

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

And we're driving to Renfro Valley in search of truth. Brian is in the

back talking about necrophilia and Todd is turning up the radio because

Neil Diamond just came on, "Solitary Man", ain't that it. And I'm poking

more candy into my face looking for a gas station to yell pull over!

about because I need some vegetable juice to stave off the demons. I'm

almost out of Reese's Cups too. I need them cups. "Jeffy needs", I

beseech aloud, mimicking Lee Marvin in "The Wild One". No one pays

attention. Brian says necrophilia is the way of the future and I offer

that he's probably right on and on the cutting edge like Kurtz's snail.

I tell him about rural cemetaries where they don't dig 'em very deep and

I see his eye gleam in the rear view mirror reflection, says: "oh yeah?"

I tell him about Louisiana where they don't even bury 'em cause the

ground's too swampy and soggy, they put 'em in great vast fucking

concrete mausoleums. City of the Dead, cool cool joint, mausoleums and

big stone filing cabinets of corpses everywhere, encrusted with

gargoyles and gryphons and maybe even the fucking Annunaki, I don't

know, and Marie Laveau's grave is covered with red X's cause it's a long

standing tradition to take a piece of the soft red crumbling brick that

litters the paths and scratch a big X on her grave. For good luck, they

say. I did it in 1984 and almost immediately thereafter I started seeing

the number 714 everywhere. Every store or house number I pass is

suddenly 714. I'm in the trolley car and 714's whiz by me at every turn,

phone numbers on signs, license plate numbers, the car stops at a light

and there's a lamppost right outside, inches away from window, and

someone has reached out the window at one time and written "714" on it

in pencil. Few days later I'm in Mississippi and stay in a motel whose

address is 714. Few more days I'm in Atlanta and my hotel room number is

714, and driving into town I see a Masonic or Shriners or somesuch

Temple, Lodge #714. By now I am sweating liquid nitrogen and freaking on

the coincidences, just like I always tell Junior never to do. Then I

find that the Diary Of Anne Frank has 714 pages, Joe Friday's badge

number on "Dragnet", the serial number of a Quaalude, etc., etc. So it

became my lucky voodoo number given to me by none other than her Queen

Majesty Marie Laveau herself, voodoo priestess of New Orleans. I'd

probably win big on the lottery with it but I don't play the lottery. I

never saw a 714 figure into a horse race but if I did you can be sure

I'd blow the load. But Manley is still talking about necrophilia and I

egg him on, encourage him, plant the subtle seeds of hmmmmm in his mind.

Todd stares silently and resolutely ahead at the road. Some Motown

bullshit comes on the radio and I pop in one of my homebrew mix tapes,

the sounds of Barbecue Bob fill the car. Barbecue Bob had a brief

recording career from 1927-1931, got killed by a voodoo curse, some say.

This voodoo is all over the place, it's a story old as dirt. There's a

lot of Appalachian Voodoo going on down here in Renfro Valley, lot of

sightings lately of occult freaks on parade and I'm all for 'em. "I want

to join these Appalachian Voodoo cats, they're alright", I opine.

"Yeah, what's up with that", Brian rhetorically mumbles from the back.

"I think it'd be the life, being in with the Appalachian Voodoo crowd,

running around naked in the woods and all that."

"I don't think they run around naked. Do they run around naked?"

"Hell, you know, if they don't, they oughta", Todd interjects. "Voodoo,

Appalachian, Cult, shit, you're supposed to run around naked and stuff,

right?"

"I run around naked all the time", I said, "I guess I must got religion.

Pull over at this gas station up here."

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:25:53 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject: Lord's Prayer & Quasi-intellectual doubletalk (was :Re:

Wittgenstein)

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Maggie Dharma wrote:

> I've really been trying to follow all the postmodern analyses of WSB and

> others posted by scholars on this list.

=== what does "postmodern" really mean, anyway? I didn't even know there

*was* any postmodern discussion of WSB going on. If simply using

ten-dollar words is "postmodern", that means Spiro Agnew must be the

king of Postmodernism. And yet he's dumber than dog dirt.

> And while I do not wish to piss anyone

> off, I'm sure I will by posting this postmodern version of The Lord's Prayer,

> which, while not strictly coded, is certainly an exercise in language.

=== Problem is, it's cute but this isn't a version of the Lord's Prayer

at all. It doesn't say, and doesn't mean, the same thing. "Hegemony" is

*not* a synonym for "kingdom", and "Empower us this day with the means

of material production" does *not* mean the same thing as "Give us this

day our daily bread". Not even close. There is a way, of course, to

render the Lord's Prayer in needlessly complex words, but this ain't it.

The point is, I haven't read (or written) any serious literary analysis

on this list yet that sets my Bullshit Detector alarm off. Close, mighty

close, but not quite yet. I do think some of these matters are so simple

and matter-of-fact that they don't need to be analyzed in the first

place, but I don't think the manner in which the analyzing has been done

is very blowhardy.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Jeffrey Scott Holland - - KY

"playin' the blues for pennies sure looks better now."

- - Joe Strummer

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 07:40:59 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Dennis Cardwell <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: the scary WSB/"highly academic pseudo-language"

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

In a message dated 2/1/98 1:59:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, IDDHI@AOL.COM

writes:

> In my opinion, the so-called academic posts that offer analyses of, for

> instance, the writing of WSB, are so arcane and (sorry) pompous-sounding

> that

> I can't figure out what point the writer is trying to make. And I'm not

> entirely sure, by any stretch of the imagination, that what the writer IS

> saying, if I COULD understand it, would be an accurate analytical

conclusion.

> A friend of mine wrote a dissertation, which I indexed and edited for him.

> It

> was full of big words like "epistomology" "dialectic" and oblique

references

> to Hegel. I couldn't understand what point he was trying to make. He said,

> It

> doesn't matter. With a dissertation, you get 'paid' by the word."

> I've never read a scholarly piece (or a writ of law) that didn't contain

> twice

> the number of words needed to make a point, and whose words were even

> remotely

> "user-friendly." Frankly, it's bad writing--VERY bad writing.

> Let me underscore my point with an excerpt from a spoof of postmodernism (

> same

> source for the Lord's Prayer I posted earlier):

> <begin excerpt>

> Perhaps you would like to join in conversation with your local mandarins of

> cultural theory and all-purpose deep thinking, but you don't know what to

> say.

> Or, when you do contribute something you consider relevant, even

insightful,

> you get ignored or looked at with pity. Here is a quick guide, then, to

> speaking and writing postmodern.

> First, you need to remember that plainly expressed language is out of the

> question. It is too realist, modernist and obvious. Postmodern language

> requires that one uses play, parody and indeterminacy as critical

techniques

> to point this out. Often this is quite a difficult requirement, so

obscurity

> is a well-acknowledged substitute. For example, let's imagine you want to

> say

> something like, "We should listen to the views of people outside of Western

> society in order to learn about the cultural biases that affect us". This

> honest but dull. Take the word "views". Postmodernspeak would change that

> "voices", or better, "vocalities", or even better, "multivocalities". Add

> adjective like "intertextual", and you're covered. "People outside" is also

> too plain. How about "postcolonial others"? To speak postmodern properly

one

> must master a bevy of biases besides the familiar racism, sexism, ageism,

> etc.

> For example, phallogocentricism (male-centredness combined with

> rationalistic

> forms of binary logic). Finally "affect us" sounds like plaid pyjamas. Use

> more obscure verbs and phrases, like "mediate our identities". So, the

final

> statement should say, "We should listen to the intertextual,

multivocalities

> of postcolonial others outside of Western culture in order to learn about

> the

> phallogocentric biases that mediate our identities". Now you're talking

> postmodern!

> <end excerpt>

> The author of this completely hilarious piece is Richard Holmes. He managed

> to

> express wittily what I have found annoying about "scholarly analyses,"

> including disciples of Derrida and Wittgenstein. Earlier, I'd tried to slog

> through a piece by Lyotard, and I found myself wondering what the hell he

> was

> talking about.

> I know I will be mightily flamed for this, but I'll go on record right now

> as

> saying I don't wish to suppress your posts at all. They do, by virtue of

the

> way they're written, exclude me from understanding them, but as you say,

> this

> is a discussion list, and they do get discussed by kindred spirits.

> I think what Cathy said in an earlier post, and what I've said in other

> posts,

> is that we ain't exactly chimps, but neither of us can understand what you'

> re

> saying. I will add that it feels like you don't really WANT people like me

> to

> understand what you're saying, or you don't care if your words are only

> comprehensible to a few others. Otherwise, you'd write in simpler terms so

> the

> masses could understand.

> It's just my opinion. My opinion on this is no more or less valuable than

> yours, but I needed to express it--plainly.

> Writing from the point of view of someone who never went to college, but

> loves

> to read--

> maggie

Great post, Maggie! I've been so exercised about Mark Ricard's idiocy (until

I found out he was an 18 year old kid) that I didn't say anything about this

except a back channel which I will forward to you.

Did you notice that he started calling me Denny? Weirded me out pretty

good...He started that right after I mailed you a brief note about it.

"Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep."

Dennis

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 08:02:08 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Dennis Cardwell <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: the scary WSB/"highly academic pseudo-language"

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

At last, I've done the thing I deplore in others...didn't check the address

box on my last post...which was intended for back channel to Maggie Dharma.

Mea culpa.

Dennis

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Content-Disposition: inline

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 08:20:00 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Adam Johansen <adamjohansen@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: kicks joy darkness

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Message text written by "Maggue G." forwarded by "BEAT-L: Beat Generation

List"

>I just borrowed a friend's copy of "Kicks Joy Darkness" and am

totally mesmerized by it. I'd never heard any recitations of Kerouac's

work prior to this, and suffice to say that my blank canvas has been

sufficiently colored by this incredible work.

The body of artists collected on "KJD" is so diverse, from the lead

singer of Aerosmith (?!--about as non-Beat as I could possibly think

of) to perennial Beat-influenced artists like Michael Stipe and Patti

Smith; though each selection on the album is so vastly different, all

of them embody Kerouac's spontaneity and raw emotion.

I especially like Stipe's version of "My Gang," Richard Lewis'

"America's New Trinity of Love: Dean, Brando, Presley," and Ginsberg's

enthusiastic full-force recitation of "The Brooklyn Bridge Blues

(Choruses 1-9).

For anyone of the list who hasn't heard "KJD" yet, definitely go out

and pick up a copy. It's a great mix of jazz, spoken word, and the

Beat Spirit.

Can anyone point me in the direction of anymore Beat recordings?

I've heard of several box sets, including one for Allen Ginsberg, but

have yet encountered any in stores. Any help would be appreciated.

Maggie G.

I've been trying to "pick up a copy@ for a while now... but nowhere has

it in stock. Can you give me a publisher and catalogue number or something?

Sorry I can't help with your enquiry.

Adam J.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:19:38 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Sundee Bumgarner <Surubu1@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: kicks joy darkness

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

There is a mail order catalog--the name escapes me now--which specializes in

Beat literature and other misc. goods. They carry a lot of hard to find

items, including spoken word and musical CDs. Try calling 1 800 Kerouac; they

should have some things you can't find in stores.

Sundee Bumgarner

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:48:51 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "POMES, PENNY EACH." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Sanders Inquiry

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

I think sanders and Kerouac first met when he went with Ted Berrigan to Jack's

house to do the Paris Review interview.

Dave B.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:03:21 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lord's Prayer & Quasi-intellectual doubletalk (was :Re:

Wittgenstein)

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

"Amen" to that, Jeffrey!

Sara Feustle

sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu

Cronopio, cronopio?

On Sun, 1 Feb 1998, Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:

> Maggie Dharma wrote:

> >

> > I've really been trying to follow all the postmodern analyses of WSB and

> > others posted by scholars on this list.

> === what does "postmodern" really mean, anyway? I didn't even know there

> *was* any postmodern discussion of WSB going on. If simply using

> ten-dollar words is "postmodern", that means Spiro Agnew must be the

> king of Postmodernism. And yet he's dumber than dog dirt.

> > And while I do not wish to piss anyone

> > off, I'm sure I will by posting this postmodern version of The Lord's

Prayer,

> > which, while not strictly coded, is certainly an exercise in language.

> === Problem is, it's cute but this isn't a version of the Lord's Prayer

> at all. It doesn't say, and doesn't mean, the same thing. "Hegemony" is

> *not* a synonym for "kingdom", and "Empower us this day with the means

> of material production" does *not* mean the same thing as "Give us this

> day our daily bread". Not even close. There is a way, of course, to

> render the Lord's Prayer in needlessly complex words, but this ain't it.

> The point is, I haven't read (or written) any serious literary analysis

> on this list yet that sets my Bullshit Detector alarm off. Close, mighty

> close, but not quite yet. I do think some of these matters are so simple

> and matter-of-fact that they don't need to be analyzed in the first

> place, but I don't think the manner in which the analyzing has been done

> is very blowhardy.

> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> Jeffrey Scott Holland - - KY

> "playin' the blues for pennies sure looks better now."

> - - Joe Strummer

> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:39:27 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Exciting News

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Dharma Lion is a first rate biography--particularly good on Ginsberg's early ye

ars.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:40:58 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: the scary WSB/"highly academic pseudo-language"

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Such scholarly posts as those on WSB are really what Beat-l needs more

of. There's been entirely too much useless chit chat as of late. Let's

keep such scholarly discussions going.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:53:32 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Andrea Moore <BMXDREA@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Sanders, Holmes and Kerouac

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

You are right to question my connection here. I'm not positive that its

accurate and I don't have a citation/ source for you. I can't find my notes

from the beginning of the last year, but I remember reading some letters where

Ed was mentioned. I think it was him because Kerouac said, "Say hello to Ed

and Miriam," and Miriam is Ed's wife. Where did I read this stuff? Well,

these books werent' very useful to me, they were old and like I said, Ed was

mentioned so briefly that I didn't even catalog it in my data files. (That's a

research lesson in itself.) I'm sorry that I can't provide you with the actual

book. All that i can remember is that the book was one probably written by the

Knight's-- perhaps one of the twenty-something year old books on the beats and

their legacy. I'm pretty sure the letters were written between holmes and

Kerouac because I wrote down that I have to check out Holmes back ground

more-- Check his bio's for references to Ed and stuff.

I appreciate everyone's discussion on this subject very much. I'm going to try

and find that WF Buckley show, I don't know how to look for this kind of

thing, but i appreciate these tidbits. That show will really help me,

especially if it is as interesting at someone made it out to be. I know

Sanders can look and sound like a dork sometimes (we all can) and I'd love to

see this caught on camera!!!

Thanks for the address etc. I didn't have his phone number!!! yikes, I doubt

I'll have the guts to call him ever, but I do plan on writing him a long

letter and sending him the second rough draft of my bio/crit.

Drea

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

ContentFrom CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU!owner-beat-l Mon Feb 2 15:40:21 1998

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 14:00:17 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Ed Sanders

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Just for the record, it's Ed Sanders not Ed Saunders.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 14:07:42 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: aol.com

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

AOL.COM users seem to experiencing some technical difficulties this afternoon.

If you get knocked off beat-l, please re-subscribe.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Sender: zman1956@postoffice.bellatlantic.net

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 14:10:42 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Zarra <zman1956@BELLATLANTIC.NET>

Subject: Re: kicks joy darkness

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Maggie,

Are there any CD shops on-line that carrie KJD, I would be very interested in

getting this collection.

Thanks a whole lot!

Johnny Z

>> I just borrowed a friend's copy of "Kicks Joy Darkness" and am

>> totally mesmerized by it. I'd never heard any recitations of Kerouac's

>> work prior to this, and suffice to say that my blank canvas has been

>> sufficiently colored by this incredible work.

>> The body of artists collected on "KJD" is so diverse, from the lead

>> singer of Aerosmith (?!--about as non-Beat as I could possibly think

>> of) to perennial Beat-influenced artists like Michael Stipe and Patti

>> Smith; though each selection on the album is so vastly different, all

>> of them embody Kerouac's spontaneity and raw emotion.

>> I especially like Stipe's version of "My Gang," Richard Lewis'

>> "America's New Trinity of Love: Dean, Brando, Presley," and Ginsberg's

>> enthusiastic full-force recitation of "The Brooklyn Bridge Blues

>> (Choruses 1-9).

>> For anyone of the list who hasn't heard "KJD" yet, definitely go out

>> and pick up a copy. It's a great mix of jazz, spoken word, and the

>> Beat Spirit.

>> Can anyone point me in the direction of anymore Beat recordings?

>> I've heard of several box sets, including one for Allen Ginsberg, but

>> have yet encountered any in stores. Any help would be appreciated.

>> Maggie G.

>> ==

>> "In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz

>> _________________________________________________________

>> DO YOU YAHOO!?

>> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

>The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

>Sure-JK

<html>

John J Zarra Jr</html>

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 14:12:47 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gene Lee <GTL1951@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Thomas Wolfe

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Hey all

Just thought i would throw in my two cents here- Thomas Wolfe was an

amazing author! And also a key influence on the young JK. But... I dont think

any American author of his time quite captures the romance of early 20th

Century America as Wolfe did. He was an enormous man with an enourmous

appetite for living and life and writing- much as JK was. And like JK- he had

discipline problems- with his life and his works. So sad- but genius aint

easy- not that i would know personally! Bummer- but maybe in the next life.

Gene

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 14:42:49 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject: Re: kicks joy darkness

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

I got my copy of KJD at Borders or Barnes and Noble,one of those chains.

On Sun, 1 Feb 1998, Aeronwy Thomas wrote:

> i bought kicks joy darkness in sept 97 i think. i think the most thrilling

> part was hearing jack's voice for the first time. (that was before i

> discovered a great website with clips of him speaking). i do think that if you

> don't have it yet, you should get it. the silly pomes (recited by julianna

> hatfield) are so funny and nice. as for where to get it, i got it through BMG

> music service when i was still a member. if you try to get it through a store,

> it might help to know that it's made by Rykodisc. sorry can't offer more help!

> aeronwy

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:52:35 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>

Subject: Re: kicks joy darkness

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

I know that CDNOW sells it on-line, but I'm not sure about any others.

Maggie

---John Zarra <zman1956@BELLATLANTIC.NET> wrote:

> Maggie,

> Are there any CD shops on-line that carrie KJD, I would be very

interested in

> getting this collection.

> Thanks a whole lot!

> Johnny Z

> >> I just borrowed a friend's copy of "Kicks Joy Darkness" and am

> >> totally mesmerized by it. I'd never heard any recitations of

Kerouac's

> >> work prior to this, and suffice to say that my blank canvas has

been

> >> sufficiently colored by this incredible work.

> >> The body of artists collected on "KJD" is so diverse, from the

lead

> >> singer of Aerosmith (?!--about as non-Beat as I could possibly

think

> >> of) to perennial Beat-influenced artists like Michael Stipe and

Patti

> >> Smith; though each selection on the album is so vastly different,

all

> >> of them embody Kerouac's spontaneity and raw emotion.

> >> I especially like Stipe's version of "My Gang," Richard Lewis'

> >> "America's New Trinity of Love: Dean, Brando, Presley," and

Ginsberg's

> >> enthusiastic full-force recitation of "The Brooklyn Bridge Blues

> >> (Choruses 1-9).

> >> For anyone of the list who hasn't heard "KJD" yet, definitely

go out

> >> and pick up a copy. It's a great mix of jazz, spoken word, and the

> >> Beat Spirit.

> >> Can anyone point me in the direction of anymore Beat recordings?

> >> I've heard of several box sets, including one for Allen Ginsberg,

but

> >> have yet encountered any in stores. Any help would be appreciated.

> >> Maggie G.

> >>

> >> ==

> >> "In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz

> >>

> >> _________________________________________________________

> >> DO YOU YAHOO!?

> >> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

> >>

> >

> >The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In

Heaven For

> >Sure-JK

> >

> <html>

> John J Zarra Jr</html>

"In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz

_________________________________________________________

DO YOU YAHOO!?

Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:21:59 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject: Charters vs Nicosia

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Whose bio of JK is better, Charter or Nicosia? Ive heard negative things

about Nicosia but nothing about Charters. This is rhetorical, I know,

but..anyone care to venture an opinion? Thanks.

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Sender: cake@ionline.net

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:26:28 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: kicks joy darkness

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

For those interested in obtaining this, try:

info@rykodisc.com

or visit their website at:

www.rykodisc.com

Maybe Jeffrey at Water Row may be able to help:

Waterrow@aol.com

or, last but not least:

Barbara Longo, who was the Production Coordinator

for this project, and at one time was a list member -

Barbara?

Hope this is a help?

Mike

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 17:30:58 -0600

Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject: some WSB observations

Comments: To: jholland@ICLUB.ORG

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Jeff:

thank you so much for the counterpoint, i'd never really thought of

Kerouac's thinking being a little far-out at times...

I have a whole queue of books lined up to read after i finish "memory

babe" which i am almost done with. next in line is ann rice (as a favor

for a friend) then comes Vanity of Dulouz. I also have Douglas

Coupland's Shampoo Planet to throw in there somewhere, in the meantime

will purchase probably the WSB Letters book, and get it in line. I

think that book will probably slide me into his realm a little easier

than trying to delve right into Naked Lunch.

cathy

> Subject:

> Cathy: some WSB observations

> Date:

> Sat, 31 Jan 1998 20:27:53 +0100

> From:

> Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

> Cathy Wilkie wrote:

> > he was a

> > freaky-type dude, who thought way-out thoughts.

> === it's all relative, though....back in the day, Kerouac was considered

> a freaky-type dude who thought way-out thoughts, such as:

> " Las mujeres blancas son la mierda" [white women are shit] I shudder to

> hear it, whole hordes of Mongolians shall overrun the western world

> saying that and they're only talking about the poor little blonde woman

> in the drugstore who's doing her best - By God, if I were Sultan! I

> wouldn't allow it! I'd arrange for something better! But it's only a

> dream! Why fret? The world wouldn't exist if it didn't have the power to

> liberate itself. Suck! Suck! suck at the teat of Heaven! Dog is God

> spelled backwards." (from "Desolation Angels")

> WSB is far freakier and way-out, of course, but perhaps that's his

> position - the next zen koan in line to untangle after conquering

> Kerouac.

> > I'm smarter than your average bear, that's for sure, but i never went to

> > grad school, and i resent the people who act like they know

> > 'oh-so-much-more' than other people, the prententious people.

> === I'm pretty pretentious myself, but it keeps me warm in the winter

> months. But I agree, I can't stand literary snobs either, especially in

> a field that was supposed to be confrontational with things literary and

> snobby. I never went to college, period. (Well, Art school for a week

> but I dropped out, then enrolled at Eastern Kentucky University and

> dropped out the first day).

> > So: i've stated i'm here to learn, i've stated my ignorance on

> > burroughs, i've stated how you have to talk to me in order for me to

> > understand. Anyone out there wanna teach me more about burroughs?????

> === I think everyone should read his biography by Ted Morgan, "Literary

> Outlaw", before reading a word of his own works. If you're already big

> on Kerouac and Ginsberg, reading "The Letters of William S.Burroughs,

> 1945-1959" is a good way to slip into the groove - most of the letters

> are to Ginsberg and many are to Kerouac....."The Yage Letters" also

> includes some of these letters, with Ginsberg's replies and some

> drawings by Ginsberg.....

> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> Jeffrey Scott Holland, Kentucky

> "here we come, all drunk a-gaaaaain..."

> - - Memphis Jug Band, 1930

> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 17:33:52 -0600

Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject: Re: kerouac and saunders

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject:

> Re: Sanders Inquiry

> Date:

> Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:14:45 +0000

> From:

> Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>

> Andrea Moore wrote:

> >

> > Gallaher wrote:

> >

> > "Ed Saunders would be a perfect example of

> > the sort of usurption of Beat that Kerouac didn't like."

> > -----------------------

> > can you elaborate on that? ...<snip>...

> > Drea

> i dunno that i agree.. ginsberg was friendly with saunders, who taught

> early on at naropa. keouac was a little negative about the next

> generation, but he thought it was cool when elvis appeared on ed

> sullivan for the first time, and later said dylan was ok, so i don't

> know that he'd have disliked ed. i understand the statement in the

> sense that saunders could've represented the 'younger generation' which

> always has it easier than the pioneers of the previous generation, and

> is never quite as bright or authentic, and i guess kerouac wasn't too

> impressed with the prankster scene, either, but i think one on one,

> kerouac would've respected saunders' talent and brains....ah...did they

> ever meet?

weren't they on a talk-show or debate panel on television together? I

think Kerouac was drunk as a skunk during this appearance. Anyone?

cathy

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Sender: kh14586@am.appstate.edu

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:04:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Nicosia's is the best by far. Charters has much less info and a lot of it

seems like it was gleaned from his novels and applied to his life.

------------------

Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:10:07 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Dennis Cardwell <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>

Subject: A Rose for Cathy

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

In a message dated 2/1/98 12:50:31 PM Pacific Standard Time, Dennis writes:

> << I'm a junior high English teacher and the way some of these ivy covered

> academicians spew verbiage offends me. We are not dolts...we understand

> English...why can't they write it? They are communicating in the rarefied

> ether of an ivory tower far above us mortals. And I resent the hell out of

> them. They are playing their game by their rules...I just wish they would

> it privately. >>

This was back channel, now it's a post...where's my asbestos union suit?

Dennis

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:13:03 -0500

Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Reply to message from kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU of Sun, 01 Feb

>Nicosia's is the best by far. Charters has much less info and a lot of it

>seems like it was gleaned from his novels and applied to his life.

>------------------

>Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University

>kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149

>http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608

***I apologize in advance. Most people would probably say that this is not

a Beat related topic & therefore doesn't belong here, but I'm posting it

anyway***

I just finished reading "Hemingway in Love and War," which deals with his

romance with Agnes von Kurowsky back in WWI. A big complaint by the writer

of that book goes along the same lines of what you mentioned up above with

the Charters biography--the biographers took incidents from Hemingway's

fiction & applied it a fact. And we kind of had this conversation before

in a round-about way, how do we classify Jack's works, fiction or

non-fiction? Since he does use so many incidents from his life in his

work...but then again, I think most writers do. But that doesn't

necessarily make it a reliable source of facts.

Diane.

"This is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"

--Jack Kerouac

Diane Marie Homza

ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Sender: edesaute@pobox3.bbn.com

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:52:06 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Edward Desautels <edesaute@BBNPLANET.COM>

Subject: Forgive me, for I have sinned against Marie,

Pope of the Beat listserv

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

At 03:11 PM 1/31/98 +0000, you wrote:

>mr desautels,

>it is coming to my awareness that you may have come to the wrong list.

Has it yet arrived?

i believe

>the monty python list would be more appropriate a venue for your one liners:

I think I'm already there, only it's "The Inquisition." Who's _your_ Pope?

Oh, and I have some two-liners.

>would recommend either the arguement clinic, or, perhaps more aptly, the

verbal

>abuse department.

Glass houses can crash so delightfully, don't you think?

>sincerely,

>mc

>Edward Desautels wrote:

>> Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.

>> Ed

>> At 11:58 PM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote:

>> >What is this, freshman writing workshop!? Whats wrong with opinions?

>> >conceptualizing, my ass.

>> >

>> >On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Edward Desautels wrote:

>> >

>> >> Apologies to anyone I've offended. I simply meant to imply that I see

>> little value in posting a piece in a forum such as this without

>> conceptualizing it in a way that promotes some sort of worthwhile

>> discussion. To simply state that one likes (or dislikes) a given piece

>> doesn't go very far toward generating ideas, perceptions, exchange. Take to

>> the next step, whether it be a personal insight or reflection on some

>> aspect of the piece or something more lit crit/theoretical. How has the

>> piece influenced, say, your conception of a poetics. Something.

>> >>

>> >> As for tone, well, I yam what I yam. Besides, I'd just spent four hours

>> handing out flowers in the airport and had a headache like you read

about. :]

>> >>

>> >> Regards,

>> >>

>> >> Ed

>> >>

>> >> At 07:37 AM 1/30/98 +0000, you wrote:

>> >>

>> >> >ed: that's a bit harsh, don't you thinnk? lots of us on this list serv

>> but as of yet, you seeem to be the only one with total reading of totality

>> of beat lit. and

>> >>

>> >> >speak for yourself, please. who is the "we" of you speak?

>> >>

>> >> >i myself was delighted to read the pome for the first time, and i've

>> beeen reading ginsberg for years.

>> >>

>> >> >mc

>> >>

>> >> >

>> >>

>> >> >Edward Desautels wrote:

>> >>

>> >> >

>> >>

>> >> >> Yes. We've read it. This is a Beat listserv.

>> >>

>> >> >>

>> >>

>> >> >> Ed

>> >>

>> >> >>

>> >>

>> >> >> At 07:27 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:

>> >>

>> >> >> > Here's a great poem from Ginsberg's early career (early 1949) that

>> >>

>> >> >> >I thought was well worth sharing.

>> >>

>> >> >> >

>> >>

>> >> >> >

>> >>

>> >> >> >Complaint of the Skeleton to Time

>> >>

>> >> >> >

>> >>

>> >> >> >Take my love, it is not true,

>> >>

>> >> >> >So let it tempt no body new;

>> >>

>> >> >> >Take my lady, she will sigh

>> >>

>> >> >> >For my bed where'er I lie;

>> >>

>> >> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,

>> >>

>> >> >> > But leave my bones alone.

>> >>

>> >> >> >

>> >>

>> >> >> >Take my raiment, now grown cold,

>> >>

>> >> >> >To give to some poor poet old;

>> >>

>> >> >> >Take the skin that hoods this truth

>> >>

>> >> >> >If his age would wear my youth;

>> >>

>> >> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,

>> >>

>> >> >> > But leave my bones alone.

>> >>

>> >> >> >

>> >>

>> >> >> >Take the thoughts that like the wind

>> >>

>> >> >> >Blow my body out of mind;

>> >>

>> >> >> >Take this heart to go with that

>> >>

>> >> >> >And pass it on from rat to rat;

>> >>

>> >> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,

>> >>

>> >> >> > But leave my bones alone.

>> >>

>> >> >> >

>> >>

>> >> >> >Take the art which I bemoan

>> >>

>> >> >> >In a poem's crazy tone;

>> >>

>> >> >> >Grind me down, though I may groan,

>> >>

>> >> >> >To the starkest stick and stone;

>> >>

>> >> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,

>> >>

>> >> >> > But leave my bones alone.

>> >>

>> >> >> >

>> >>

>> >> >> > Early on, it was obvious that Allen Ginsberg had one of the

greatest

>> >>

>> >> >> >minds of his generation. His presence is sorely missed in our

>> >>

>> >> >> >counterculture.

>> >>

>> >> >> > Maggie G.

>> >>

>> >> >> >

>> >>

>> >> >> >"In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz

>> >>

>> >> >> >

>> >>

>> >> >> >

>> >>

>> >> >> >

>> >>

>> >> >> >_________________________________________________________

>> >>

>> >> >> >DO YOU YAHOO!?

>> >>

>> >> >> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

>> >>

>> >> >> >

>> >>

>> >> >>

>> ôÒ*

>> >>

>> >> >>

>> ôÚ0

>> >>

>> >> >>

>> ôÚ0

>> >>

>> >> >>

>> ôÚ0

>> >>

>> >> >>

>> ôÚ0

>> >>

>> >> >>

>> ôÚp

>> >>

>> >> >>

>> >>

>> >> >>

>> ôÚ¥

>> >>

>> >> >>

>> ôÛ

>> >>

>> >> >>

>> ôÛ

>> >>

>> >> >>

>> ôx8

>> >>

>> >> >

>> >>

>> >> <center>************************************************************

>> >>

>> >> <bigger>Edward Desautels

>> >>

>> >> 7 Hamilton Road

>> >>

>> >> Somerville, MA 02144

>> >>

>> >> edesaute@bbnplanet.com

>> >>

>> >> http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html

>> >>

>> >> "One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,

>> >>

>> >> I called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."

>> >>

>> >> Jacques Rigaut

>> >>

</bigger>************************************************************</center>

>> >>

>> >

>> >The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

>> >Sure-JK

>> >

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:53:35 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Aeronwy Thomas <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

i have read a lot of the work that ann charters has done on jack and it seems

fine to me. an especially good place for beginners to start, i think, because

it's well-researched and easy to read, even though there are a few points i

think i disagreed with.

aeronwy

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:37:27 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>

Subject: Re: the scary WSB/"highly academic pseudo-language"

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Maggie Dharma wrote:

> In my opinion, the so-called academic posts that offer analyses of, for

> instance, the writing of WSB, are so arcane and (sorry) pompous-sounding that

> I can't figure out what point the writer is trying to make. And I'm not

> entirely sure, by any stretch of the imagination, that what the writer IS

> saying, if I COULD understand it, would be an accurate analytical conclusion.

> I think what Cathy said in an earlier post, and what I've said in other posts,

> is that we ain't exactly chimps, but neither of us can understand what you're

> saying. I will add that it feels like you don't really WANT people like me to

> understand what you're saying, or you don't care if your words are only

> comprehensible to a few others. Otherwise, you'd write in simpler terms so the

> masses could understand.

> Writing from the point of view of someone who never went to college, but loves

> to read--

> maggie

1. i completely agree with you.

2. what the author was trying to say may not even be clear to the author

himself. i always thought that the beauty of literature was the fact

that everyone can give it one'e own meaning and interpretation.

3. i rarely read philosophy for the reason you mentioned: i have the

feeling that they don't want me to understand what they are saying. i

may not be the smartest person alive, but i don't like it when somebody

assumes my igorance i.e. his/ger superiority.

4. the people who write in such academic language are sometimes hiding

the fact that they have nothing to say.

5. i did go to college. i learned a lot more on my own. as a matter of

fact, as i work at the university and watch the students at the exams

daily, their fright, worries, the desire to do well, i am constantly

wondering if it is worth it; what is it that we've forgotten that is

making us so frustrated? which brings me to the next point:

6. it seems to me that the people on the list are becoming nervous and

intolerant. it shouldn't be so...

my humble opinion...

ksenija

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 23:38:50 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject: Re: some WSB observations

Comments: To: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@comic.net>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

I LOVE Shampoo PLanet!

On Sun, 1 Feb 1998, Cathy Wilkie wrote:

> Jeff:

> thank you so much for the counterpoint, i'd never really thought of

> Kerouac's thinking being a little far-out at times...

> I have a whole queue of books lined up to read after i finish "memory

> babe" which i am almost done with. next in line is ann rice (as a favor

> for a friend) then comes Vanity of Dulouz. I also have Douglas

> Coupland's Shampoo Planet to throw in there somewhere, in the meantime

> will purchase probably the WSB Letters book, and get it in line. I

> think that book will probably slide me into his realm a little easier

> than trying to delve right into Naked Lunch.

> cathy

> >

> > Subject:

> > Cathy: some WSB observations

> > Date:

> > Sat, 31 Jan 1998 20:27:53 +0100

> > From:

> > Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

> >

> > Cathy Wilkie wrote:

> >

> > > he was a

> > > freaky-type dude, who thought way-out thoughts.

> >

> > === it's all relative, though....back in the day, Kerouac was considered

> > a freaky-type dude who thought way-out thoughts, such as:

> >

> > " Las mujeres blancas son la mierda" [white women are shit] I shudder to

> > hear it, whole hordes of Mongolians shall overrun the western world

> > saying that and they're only talking about the poor little blonde woman

> > in the drugstore who's doing her best - By God, if I were Sultan! I

> > wouldn't allow it! I'd arrange for something better! But it's only a

> > dream! Why fret? The world wouldn't exist if it didn't have the power to

> > liberate itself. Suck! Suck! suck at the teat of Heaven! Dog is God

> > spelled backwards." (from "Desolation Angels")

> >

> > WSB is far freakier and way-out, of course, but perhaps that's his

> > position - the next zen koan in line to untangle after conquering

> > Kerouac.

> >

> > > I'm smarter than your average bear, that's for sure, but i never went to

> > > grad school, and i resent the people who act like they know

> > > 'oh-so-much-more' than other people, the prententious people.

> >

> > === I'm pretty pretentious myself, but it keeps me warm in the winter

> > months. But I agree, I can't stand literary snobs either, especially in

> > a field that was supposed to be confrontational with things literary and

> > snobby. I never went to college, period. (Well, Art school for a week

> > but I dropped out, then enrolled at Eastern Kentucky University and

> > dropped out the first day).

> >

> > > So: i've stated i'm here to learn, i've stated my ignorance on

> > > burroughs, i've stated how you have to talk to me in order for me to

> > > understand. Anyone out there wanna teach me more about burroughs?????

> >

> > === I think everyone should read his biography by Ted Morgan, "Literary

> > Outlaw", before reading a word of his own works. If you're already big

> > on Kerouac and Ginsberg, reading "The Letters of William S.Burroughs,

> > 1945-1959" is a good way to slip into the groove - most of the letters

> > are to Ginsberg and many are to Kerouac....."The Yage Letters" also

> > includes some of these letters, with Ginsberg's replies and some

> > drawings by Ginsberg.....

> >

> > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> > Jeffrey Scott Holland, Kentucky

> > "here we come, all drunk a-gaaaaain..."

> > - - Memphis Jug Band, 1930

> > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 23:41:18 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Its funny that you should say that because I heard that Charter's bio info

came from the source itself whereas Nicosia worked from library materials

becuse he had no access to JK's papers.

On Sun, 1 Feb 1998, Alex Howard

wrote:

> Nicosia's is the best by far. Charters has much less info and a lot of it

> seems like it was gleaned from his novels and applied to his life.

> ------------------

> Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University

> kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149

> http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 00:23:31 -0500

Reply-To: cmdumond@ehc.edu

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Chris Dumond <cmdumond@EHC.EDU>

Subject: Charters vs Nicosia/Georgian Blue Poetry Society

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Hey Folks,

Not to contribute to anymore of the CRAP that's been on the list lately

(mmmm.... pedophilia.... interesting, but somehow not after the 56th

post), however, did any of the vetrans here urinate on themselves when

they read the original Charters/Nicosia message?

Sorry, I found the innocence hystarical.

ANYWAY, do any of you know anything about the Georgian Blue Poetry

Society? Some guy emailed me about publishing a poem for a $12 fee and

I'd like to know if it's remotely legit before I shell over laundry/beer

money to him.

Thanks,

Chris

"All day long, wearing a hat, that wasn't on my head!"

~Jack Kerouac

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Sender: cake@ionline.net

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 02:30:32 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Ron Carter/non-beat content

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

For you jazz fans in NY, I was just perusing the

Sunday Times and noticed that Ron Carter

will be playing at the Merkin Concert Hall

on Monday the 8th. As well as the following dates:

02/10-15/98 New York, NY - Village Vanguard

02/17-22/98 New York, NY - Iridium Jazz Club

Mike

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:22:38 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

if memory serves me well, i believe charters did not have access to much info in

the time span in which she wrote the bio. i do believe that memory babe is a

much

better work. but i also think of charters as the first to attempt a bio with as

much info as she could glean.

this may be a somewhat slanted viewpoint, as i studied with charters and found

her to be warm and passionate about kerouac the man and kerouac the writer.

Aeronwy Thomas wrote:

> i have read a lot of the work that ann charters has done on jack and it seems

> fine to me. an especially good place for beginners to start, i think, because

> it's well-researched and easy to read, even though there are a few points i

> think i disagreed with.

> aeronwy

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 02:58:27 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Visions of Gerard

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Reading _Visions of Gerard_ I have to wonder if the story told here isn't

really the key to the sense of despair that inevitably topples Kerouac's

joy of life described in all of his other books. It seems that at four

years old, the question was asked, that was continually asked throughout

Kerouac's adult life: What is the meaning of life in the face of one's

own mortality? It also seems to me that his parents' reactions to

Gerard's death, more or less set the course for his thinking for the rest

of his life.

There seems to be three key realizations in Visions of Gerard:

1. "And there's no doubt in my heart that my mother loves Gerard more

than she loves me."

No matter what Jack does for the rest of his life he is competing with

the memory of Gerard as a symbol of true goodness, and no matter how hard

he tries his mother will always love Gerard more than him.

2. From Gerard's own manner of accepting death, Jack senses Gerard is not

afraid of death and that death is good.

"I don't remember how Gerard died, but (in my memory, which is limited

and mundane) here I am running pellmell out of the house about 4 o'clock

in the afternoon and down the sidewalks of Beaulieu Street yelling to my

father whom I've seen coming around the corner woeful and slow with

strawhat back and coat over arms in the summer heat, gleefully yelling

'Gerard est mort!" (Gerard is dead!) as tho it were some great event that

would make a change that would make everything better, which it actually

was, which granted it actually was."

After watching his parent's reaction to death, there is a sudden and

great change in his thinking:

"Truth that cracks open in my head like an oyster, and I see it, the

house disappears in her Swarm of Snow, Gerard is dead and the soul is

dead and the world is dead and dead is dead."

3. Kerouac's idealism is linked to his vision of Gerard, his sense of

self-worth is linked to Gerard, his writing is linked to Gerard.

"An old dream too I've had of me glooping, that night, in the parlor, by

Gerard's coffin. I dont see him in the coffin but he's there, his ghost,

brown ghost, and I'm grown sick in my papers (my writing papers, my

bloody 'literary career' ladies and gentlemen) and the whole reason I

why ever wrote at all and drew breath to bite in vain with pen of ink,

great gad with indefensible Usable pencil, because of Gerard, the

idealism, Gerard the religious hero--'Write in honor of his death'..."

In writing in honor of Gerard's death, however, Kerouac continually is

brought to the point where he is posing the question asked in this book:

"Why should such hearts be made to wince and cringe and groan out life's

breath?--why does God kill us?" Both Christianity and Buddhism offer

paths through these questions, but Kerouac chose this answer:

"We all die? We're all piles of you-know-what? Liars? Poor? Invalids?

Well then! I drink! Open the door, belly, gimme another chance. He gets

his other chance, dances jigs till ten, and sleeps at noon. What he does

at 4 o'clock in the afternoon is in its poor selfsame essence no

different than what the mournful ladies with their beads and moving-lips,

in the shadows of the church, are doing--For, the truth that is

realizable in dead men's bones ought to be a good enough truth for

everybody, laughers, cryers, cynics, and hopers included, all--The truth

that is realizable in dead men's bones, all great gloomy unwilling life

aside, and setting aside my knighthood to thus say so, exhilirates yea

exterminates all symbols and bosses and crosses and leaves that quiet

blank--For my part, the news about truth came of the silence of my

predecessor diers' graves.

Sicken if you will, this gloomy book's foretold."

Truth is realizable in dead men's bones is an awesome statement. It also

cuts off the possibility of truth in living, of finding one's own way

through suffering, of finding meaning in life regardless of what one

believes happens at death.

This got too long and I should have divided it into more than

one post. But I'm hoping some others of you will have some thoughts

about the ideas put forth in _Visions of Gerard_ and will break this down

into further areas of discussion.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:06:26 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia/Georgian Blue Poetry Society

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Chris Dumond wrote:

> did any of the vetrans here urinate on themselves when

> they read the original Charters/Nicosia message?

> Sorry, I found the innocence hystarical.

=== I don't get it. Where is the humor? Is this a list only for people

like you and your "vetrans" (sic) who find innocence "hystarical"

(sic)? I pity your children, if you have any.

I find YOUR innocence hysterical, since I already went through the stage

where one enjoys feeling superior to others because one knows more about

Beat than others..... when I was 15.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Jeffrey Scott Holland

K e n t u c k y

livin' on cinnamon rolls

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:27:24 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject: Re: highly academic pseudo-language

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Cathy Wilkie wrote:

> I don't think the people that speak the

> "highly academic pseudo-language" REALIZE they are UNINTENTIONALLY

> BLOCKING people like me from UNDERSTANDING their concepts. I think they

> talk that way and think everyone else can automatically understand it.

=== Yes and no...In most of these instances that I've read, just in this

first week since I've joined the list, most of this stuff just cannot be

put in simpler terms....there is no simpler way to say

"self-referential", "epistemology", "metaphysical", blah blah

blah....even though some of the stuff that comes across this list may

look like needlessly verbose horseshit, it isn't. The ideas behind some

of it may be pure crap, but there's nothing wrong with the way they're

expressing it. No one can be expected to provide a complete glossary of

terms in each and every post; but there's nothing stopping anyone from

diving in asking questions.

However, I *AM* on your side, because it seems to me that very few here

are actually trying to communicate with others; their postings are

almost like they're posting an essay on a bulletin board and walking

away. If there's something you don't understand, don't be afraid to

stand up and ask, ask a hundred questions, that's what these lists are

supposed to be for, they're discussion groups. There will inevitably be

assholes who will make groaning holier-than-thou comments with an air of

superiority, but just ignore them. The ones who think they know the most

about Beat only know trivia, not the heart and soul of the matter.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

J.S.Holland, Kentucky

looking for my bottle of cholula

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:54:07 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia/Georgian Blue Poetry Society

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Chris Dumond wrote:

> Sorry if you took offense at that, it was written light-heartedly with a

> touch of sarcasm.

=== Like Nancy and others, I missed the light-heartedness, though the

sarcasm was evident.

> The list has a strong tendancy to get VERY heated

> over the Charters/Nicosia issue because a lot of people on the list have

> serious interests in the issues Nicosia brings up. As was pointed out,

> Charters has extensive access to the Kerouac Archives and Nicosia is

> trying to uncover what some call unethical and illegal practices by the

> Sampas family (they are the ones who have the rights and possesion of

> Jack's stuff).

=== I didn't know this and many others don't. I wish you'd mentioned

this in your original post; many of us have joined this list only

recently and are unaware of what has transpired before us.

> Gerry Nicosia is even on the Beat-L.

=== SPROING!!! Really?? Hello Gerry!

> In short, I wasn't slamming you or saying that you were ignorant

=== Looking back at your post, though, surely you can see how it

couldn't be interpreted any other way to those who didn't know what you

were alluding to...(which I was ignorant of too); hence I jumped in.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

jeffrey scott holland

going to richmond now

to hit the used bookstores

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:17:17 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: Forgive me, for I have sinned against Marie,

Pope of the Beat listserv

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

forgive ME, bill, but i couldn't help taking the bait. this is the last of my

public posts to this insanity.

to mr desautels:

i don't know what to thank you for, sir:

for the cyber sex change operation or if not that, your radical feminism in

envisioning a female

pope, and therefore my promotion'

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 07:55:01 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia/Georgian Blue Poetry Society

Comments: To: Chris Dumond <cmdumond@EHC.EDU>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Umm..speaking as the person who wrote the original post, what exactly was

so hysterical about it? Not everyone on this list knows everything about

everything and I havent been around as long as the rest of y'all. I'm 18.

Just exactly how much do you expect me to know about everything concerning

the beats? You're not making the list very conducive to learning. And if

you are urinating on yourself, perhaps its time to grab the Depends the

next time you go to the market.

~Nancy

On Mon, 2 Feb 1998, Chris Dumond wrote:

> Hey Folks,

> Not to contribute to anymore of the CRAP that's been on the list lately

> (mmmm.... pedophilia.... interesting, but somehow not after the 56th

> post), however, did any of the vetrans here urinate on themselves when

> they read the original Charters/Nicosia message?

> Sorry, I found the innocence hystarical.

> ANYWAY, do any of you know anything about the Georgian Blue Poetry

> Society? Some guy emailed me about publishing a poem for a $12 fee and

> I'd like to know if it's remotely legit before I shell over laundry/beer

> money to him.

> Thanks,

> Chris

> "All day long, wearing a hat, that wasn't on my head!"

> ~Jack Kerouac

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:10:53 +0000

Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: Visions of Gerard

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Dear Diane,

Thank you for your post regarding VISIONS OF GERARD.

It's true that, ultimately, any understanding of The Duluoz Legend must

begin and end with the Ghost of Gerard, which is more significant for

interpreting Kerouac than any notions of modernism, post-war American

fiction, bohemianism, BEATitude, first-thought-best-thought,

speed-typing or whatever. Kerouac's life and work must be viewed through

the lens of his early loss of his older brother.

Some of the things I ponder through this lens are the following:

- Jack's relationship with Memere

- Jack's relationship with Sammy Sampas

- Jack's relationship with Neal Cassady

- Jack's Buddhism

- Jack's Catholicism

- Jack's alcoholism

- Jack's sadness

- Jack's conception of angels

- Jack's conception of writing as prayer

- Jack's obsession with death (_I wrote it 'cause we're all gonna die_)

- Jack's death

regards,

John Hasbrouck

...accept loss forever... -JK

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:36:02 -0600

Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject: Re: highly academic pseudo-language

Comments: cc: cake@IONLINE.NET

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Mike and all:

Okay, once again I state: I don't think the people that speak the

"highly academic pseudo-language" REALIZE they are UNINTENTIONALLY

BLOCKING people like me from UNDERSTANDING their concepts. I think they

talk that way and think everyone else can automatically understand it.

I apologize for not having asked for clarification before on some of

these conversations i was referring to, but perhaps that is because in

the past whenever i was in a situation like this and i did ask for

clarification i GOT FLAMED for being so stupid, or even some pretentious

comment like "What about it DON"T you understand?" said in a very snotty

tone of voice. I didn't realize that you had to have a certain IQ

quotient to hang out on the Beat LIst. I thought I was doing just fine

on here. I"m here to learn from you people. If you deny me that

opportunity just because i may not understand every word you say, then

you, my friends, are the shallow ones. Very unbeat. I do appreciate

the "highly academic psuedo-language" discussions. I really do. I wish

that i could talk like that. I shouldn't fear baring my ignorance to

you people. I should be able to ask for clarification. YOu're right.

I should be doing that. I want you to understand that i am NOT

criticizing the intellectual elite, it's just that i want them to

understand the concept that not everyone sees the world in big words

like they do.

And I quote:

"All the way from Amarillo to Childress, Dean and I pounded plot after

plot of books we'd read into Stan, who asked for it because he wanted to

know."

--Jack Kerouac

"ON the road"

point. counterpoint.

Besides that, my post that you were responding to was a response to

someone else on why I found WSB 'Scary" and unapproachable. I wansn't

just pulling these statements out of thin air, suddenly deciding to go

on a rampage on those who talked intelligently.

thank you for your time,

cathy

> Subject:

> Re: the scary WSB/"highly academic pseudo-language"

> Date:

> Sun, 1 Feb 1998 03:56:39 -0500

> From:

> "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

> At 04:27 PM 1/31/98 -0600, cathy wrote:

> <snip>

> >I thought burroughs voice sounded nice, so i started paying

> >more attention to what people were saying about him on here.

> >MOst of the conversations, especially the wittgenstein-burroughs

> >discussion, was compleeeettly over my head. But the

> >recent discussion has made sense to me.

> >

> >I'm smarter than your average bear, that's for sure, but

> >i never went to grad school, and i resent the people

> >who act like they know 'oh-so-much-more' than other

> >people, the prententious people. They unconciously

> >exclude people like me who want to learn, who want

> >to know more, but can't understand their highly academic >pseudo-language.

> I can understand most concepts,

> >having it put in layperson's terms helps me at

> >times.

> >

> >So: i've stated i'm here to learn, i've stated my

> >ignorance on burroughs, i've stated how you have

> >to talk to me in order for me to understand. Anyone

> >out there wanna teach me more about burroughs?????

> Ok, I'd like to say a couple things about the recent

> rantings of people regarding "highly academic pseudo-

> language." First of all, this list is supposed to be a

> *discussion* list. That means the "highly academic

> pseudo-language" (that usually relates directly to one

> of the "beat" authors) is just as acceptable as the

> chatline, non-list related conversations that seem

> to dominate most posts. In regards to your concerns about not

> understanding these discussions, I never saw one

> post from you asking the authors of those posts for

> some kind of clarification. No, instead we get a

> post that condemns anyone who makes an

> "intellectual" query/hypothesis, and are at fault

> for your not "understanding" the concepts. The

> fact that you are asking for help and are making

> a request that someone "teach" you more about

> Burroughs is great. It's your choice of approach that

> turns me off (personally), a simple "can someone please

> explain this theory" would suffice, and would be a more

> positive/proactive way to achieve help.

> Mike

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Sender: kh14586@am.appstate.edu

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 09:53:32 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Its funny that you should say that because I heard that Charter's bio info

> came from the source itself whereas Nicosia worked from library materials

> becuse he had no access to JK's papers.

I can't remember if his denied access was by estate or by choice. For

some reason I seem to remember him saying something about wanting to

create the archive by interviewing the people who actually knew Kerouac.

He spent, what -- 12/15 years writing the book? Charters' is good for

beginners as Memory Babe is _quite_ a hefty tome. If you want deep,

complete biography (as complete as they come, I mean), MB is the one.

There are no particulay bad bios out. Some are better than others for

different reasons. Angel-Headed Hipster and Jack's Book are quite good

and should be read by anyone wanting a complete picture of the man, but

they are far from being as detailed as MB. Depends on what you want in a

bio and what you have time to read.

------------------

Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 10:26:57 -0500

Reply-To: cmdumond@ehc.edu

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Chris Dumond <cmdumond@EHC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia/Georgian Blue Poetry Society

Comments: To: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@is8.nyu.edu>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Hey Nancy,

Sorry if you took offense at that, it was written light-heartedly with a

touch of sarcasm. The list has a strong tendancy to get VERY heated

over the Charters/Nicosia issue because a lot of people on the list have

serious interests in the issues Nicosia brings up. As was pointed out,

Charters has extensive access to the Kerouac Archives and Nicosia is

trying to uncover what some call unethical and illegal practices by the

Sampas family (they are the ones who have the rights and possesion of

Jack's stuff). Gerry Nicosia is even on the Beat-L. I can't begin to

explain to you just how upset people are getting over the issue. I

believe there are cases currently pending in three different courts.

It's my bet though, that you'll be getting plenty of information from

sources who are much better informed as well as involved, than I --

which I suggest if you're interested.

In short, I wasn't slamming you or saying that you were ignorant, just

that I found the irony to be funny given the responses your question

eventually leads to. Personally, I like Nicosia's better because it

gave me a better feel for Jack as a person rather than Jack as he was

seen in the beat generation.

I wasn't attacking what you wrote, so next time, if you have that much

of a problem with it, please backchannel me so that I can clarify things

before you post to the list -- that way I don't feel like I have to

polute this list any more with personal nonsense.

Chris

PS I'll make sure to grab a pack on my way home today.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:33:44 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments: Resent-From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM>

Comments: Originally-From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: highly academic pseudo-language

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Once again, Beat-l is first and foremost an academic discussion list.

Academic language, then, is appropriate for discussion. It's true that

some branches of contemporary literary criticism have developed their

own jargon and that those wishing to partake of discussions in these

sub-disciplines will have to learn the language. Those not wishing to

do so are free to delete such messages from Beat-l. In other words,

just ignore them. No one on the list, I hope, will try to reduce his

or her ideas or simplify his or her vocabulary to cater to some kind of

intellectual lowest common denominator. That's not what this list -- or

education in general-- is all about.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Sender: prinzhal@popd.ix.netcom.com

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:36:07 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Arthur Maynard <prinzhal@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

At 19:53 2/1/98 EST, you wrote:

>i have read a lot of the work that ann charters has done on jack and it seems

>fine to me. an especially good place for beginners to start, i think, because

>it's well-researched and easy to read, even though there are a few points i

>think i disagreed with.

Personally, I don't feel any obligation to "choose" (read: take sides)

between them. I also think Dennis McNally's Desolate Angel is underappreciated.

OTOH, it might be well to remember that whoever does a thing first not only

volunteers to take the most flak, but also grades the road for others.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:08:58 +0000

Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Dear Cyan,

Welcome to the list.

Your idea of comparing Ginsberg's _America_ to Lincoln's _Gettysburg

Address_ is marvelous and inspired. I'm not kidding.

When I was 18 I saw Ginsberg read _America_ and was quite startled. I

thought, jeez! who IS this guy? I decided to find out. I'd already read

ON THE ROAD but hadn't yet made the connection. That was 16 years ago.

An excellent essay you'll want to consult on the _Gettysburg Address_ is

called _Lincoln's Declaration_, written by Mortimer J. Adler, in his

book, HAVES WITHOUT HAVE-NOTS.

Keep the list informed.

-John Hasbrouck

Return-Path: <MAILER-DAEMON>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:53:09 -0500

From:

"L-Soft list server at The City University of NY (1.8c)" <LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Message ("Your message dated Mon, 02 Feb 1998 19:44:22...")

To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Your message dated Mon, 02 Feb 1998 19:44:22 +0100 with subject "sliced#1"

has been successfully distributed to the BEAT-L list (261 recipients).

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Sender: cake@ionline.net

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:55:35 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: Visions of Gerard

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

At 02:58 AM 2/2/98 -0800, Diane Carter wrote:

<snip>

>This got too long and I should have divided it into

>more than one post. But I'm hoping some others

>of you will have some thoughts about the ideas put

>forth in _Visions of Gerard_ and will break this down

>into further areas of discussion.

Diane,

If I remember correctly there is a letter from JK to

Neal Cassady in _Selected Letters_ that goes into

detail of the significance of Gerard's death to Jack.

I don't have my copy on hand so I can't give you a

date or pg number. I suggest you check this out.

Mike

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 20:04:22 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Cheyanne C Ritz wrote:

> I'm even thinking about comparing it ("America") somehow to Abe Lincoln's

> Gettysburg Address. Any comments??

=== Fantastic idea!! I wish Ginsberg were alive to hear about this, he'd

have loved it.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Jeffrey Scott Holland - Ky.

dangling in the tournefortia

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:38:50 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Fred Bogin <FDBBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Organization: Brooklyn College Library

Subject: reply-to

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Folks--

I think I may have solved a problem some of you have been having with

replies to your postings going to you rather than to the list. If you're

using an offline mail program (Netscape, Eudora, Pegasus, etc.) and

you've set in your preferences Your Own E-mail Address as an explicit

reply-to address, your postings to beat-l will have your address as the

reply-to address, rather than the list's address. To fix this, just

remove your e-mail address from the reply-to section of your program's

preferences and the problem should be solved. My two test postings

of a few minutes ago demonstrated this using Netscape 4.04's mail

program. Let me know if there are any further problems.

Fred

for beat-l

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Sender: jgrant@pop.globaldialog.com

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 15:49:54 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Perhaps you should read both and decide for yourself.

I'm a friend of Gerry's. I believe his book on JK is superior to Charter's.

Although he didn't have access to the JK material that John Sampas

believes, and the law concurs, belongs to him, Nicosia's perssoanal

conversations with close friends of JK's was a very impotant part of his

work.

Regardless of the "who's best" I would never offer Charters anything other

than praise for her Kerouac books, although I think she stood still for

more censorship by Sampas than she should have.

We're fortunate to have both.

j grant

HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

Details on-line at

http://www.bookzen.com

625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

DFrom CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU!owner-beat-l Wed Feb 4 08:19:54 1998

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:13:49 +0000

Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>

Organization: art language wholsale retail

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

> Its funny that you should say that because I heard that Charter's bio info

> came from the source itself whereas Nicosia worked from library materials

> becuse he had no access to JK's papers.

charters met kerouac, didn't she? Nicosia's archive is extensive, as

are his footnotes

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:22:08 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Cheyanne C Ritz <CYAN47I@AOL.COM>

Subject: Allen Ginsberg

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Hi, this is my first post. Just a few comments on this list - This is the

first one I've ever been on, and it's great. I always have mail. And yes, I

think I'm learning things. I'm 18 and only recently started reading beat

writers. I saw the movie of Naked Lunch and thought it neat, but that's as

far as it went. Now I am devouring the Beat Reader (not a comment on the

recent arguement between Charters and

Nicosia) and I heard of this listserv.

Sorry to bore you with all that, just thought I should explain any naivete in

my following posts.

To get to the point, I am now planning out a research paper on Allen Ginsberg,

specifically the poem "America". I've found Dick McBride's Cometh With Clouds

to be a very interesting source, and of course Dharma Lion.

I'm even thinking about comparing it ("America") somehow to Abe Lincoln's

Gettysburg Address. Any comments?? I'd really be interested on any comments

on this poem. Heck, get a whole discussion going.

Thanks,

><CYAN><

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:22:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: cfasull1@IC3.ITHACA.EDU

Subject: "howl" request

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

i was wondering if anyone out there had in their possession a copy of the

phonograph recording of "howl and other poems", put out by fantasy-galaxy

records in 1959. i was looking to secure myself an original copy, and if

nothing else, maybe i could send a blank tape out for it to be recorded.

any help should be directed to CFASULL1@IC3.ITHACA.EDU thanks

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:26:01 -0800

Reply-To: fdbbc@cunyvm.cuny.edu

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Fred Bogin <FDBBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Test please ignore

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Testing. Please ignore.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:26:38 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Fred Bogin <FDBBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Testing 2

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Sorry, one more test.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:00:03 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject: Allen Ginsberg

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

For those of you who live in the NYC area, Anthology Film Archives will be

screening a film called "Scenes from Allen's Last Three Days On Earth as a

Spirit". If you want further info, I can type out the blurb in a later

post.

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Sender: eam23@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:15:22 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: beth <elizabeth.ann.mekker@DREXEL.EDU>

Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Nancy, further info would be splendid! beth...

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 15:23:31 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>

Subject: Beats and the Lost Generation

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

I'm preparing to start research for a paper I'm going to write

comparing the Beats to the Lost Generation of the 1920's and 30's.

I've seen a lot of similarities between the two groups: substance

abuse, disillusionment with America, expatriatism (both literal and

figurative).

I plan to center my argument around a comparison of _On The Road_ to

Hemingway's _The Sun Also Rises_ and "Howl" to T.S. Eliot's "The

Wasteland."

Just curious to hear if anyone else has seen any similarites between

these two literary groups, probably the two greatest in the history of

American Lit.

Thanks,

maggie g.

"In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz

_________________________________________________________

DO YOU YAHOO!?

Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:02:36 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

The following was taken from the Anthology Film Archives program...

Jonas Mekas: Scenes from Allen's LAst Three Days on Earth as a Spirit

(April 5-7,1997) 67 min

"This is a video record of the Buddhist Wake Ceremony at Allen Ginsber's

apartment. You see Allen, now asleep forever, in his bed;some of his close

friends;and the wrapping up and removal of Allen's body from his

apartment. You hear Jonas' description of his last conversation with

Allen, three days earlier. You see the final farewell at the Buddhist

Temple, 118 West 22nd St, NYC, and some of his close friends: Peter

Orlovsky, Patti Smith, Gregory Corso, LeRoi Jones/Amiri Baraka. Hiro

Yamagata, Anne Waldman and many others.

The screening times are:

Sat, Feb 7, 8pm

Sun, Feb 8, 6 pm

Sat, Feb 21, 8pm

The Archives are located at 32 Second Ave, NY NY, between 2nd and 3rd

streets, I believe.

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 20:02:54 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Nancy:

It is to some degree a matter of taste, but I don't think that there really

is grounds for comparison of the two. They fill two different roles. If you

want to know about JKerouac in detail, clearly you should be read Memory

Babe. If you are interested in a superficial treatment of JK, then Charters

is the book for you. I think most people on this list would state that

Memory Babe is the best biography of Jack Kerouac. What has been said on

this list has nothing to do with the quality of Nicosia's work. Gerry says

that when someone can have access to his work, plus Jack's pocket notebooks,

then a better book than Memory Babe will be written. Of course, that will

depend on whether or not such a writer is granted free editorial content as

well.

The best way to find out, is to read them both. I liked both of them, but

for entirely different reasons. And, I read Charters first.

Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

> Whose bio of JK is better, Charter or Nicosia? Ive heard negative things

> about Nicosia but nothing about Charters. This is rhetorical, I know,

> but..anyone care to venture an opinion? Thanks.

> The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

> Sure-JK

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:25:20 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosiau

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> It is to some degree a matter of taste, but I don't think that there really

> is grounds for comparison of the two. They fill two different roles. If you

> want to know about JKerouac in detail, clearly you should be read Memory

> Babe. If you are interested in a superficial treatment of JK, then Charters

> is the book for you. I think most people on this list would state that

> Memory Babe is the best biography of Jack Kerouac. What has been said on

No offense Bentz but I don't think this is necessarily true. I liked

both books but I'd have to say Charters achieved the same thing with

half as many words. I found her biography ("Kerouac") incredibly

powerful, and wouldn't have changed a thing. Bigger isn't always

better. And brevity is the soul of wit, and all that.

I will concede, though, that Nicosia's book is the one the serious

Kerouac scholar will rely on. But that doesn't make it less

"superficial" -- anyway I don't think either book was in any

way superficial. Superficial people don't tend to become obsessed

with Kerouac -- that's the way I see it.

---------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |

| |

| Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

| (the beat literature web site) |

| |

| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |

| (a real book, like on paper) |

| also at http://coffeehousebook.com |

| |

| *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |

| |

| "Nothing is capsulized in me, on either side of town" |

| -- Joni Mitchell |

---------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Sender: mapaul@pop.pipeline.com

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 20:36:16 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Wait until you read Ellis Amburn's bio...

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

Henry David Thoreau

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:02:38 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

John Arthur Maynard wrote:

> At 19:53 2/1/98 EST, you wrote:

> >i have read a lot of the work that ann charters has done on jack and it seems

> >fine to me. an especially good place for beginners to start, i think,

because

> >it's well-researched and easy to read, even though there are a few points i

> >think i disagreed with.

> >

> Personally, I don't feel any obligation to "choose" (read: take sides)

> between them. I also think Dennis McNally's Desolate Angel is

underappreciated.

> OTOH, it might be well to remember that whoever does a thing first not only

> volunteers to take the most flak, but also grades the road for others.

While watching professional wrestling this evening i decided it was an

appropriate time to jump into this thread, for it seems almost as if the

listmembership is interested in something of a "let's get ready to

rumble" conflict over who is better. Or perhaps another Ali-Frazier

rematch in post prime.

I must agree that the saner voice is presented by John Arthur Maynard in

this post.

It seems to me that anyone who undertakes a biography of any sort of

Jack Kerouac is either a fool or deserves a commendation just for the

effort. It is a huge task to undertake the writing of biographical work

-- knowing that SOMEONE will discount you if a single detail is in error

-- for any subject.

The biographical subject of Jack Kerouac is uniquely difficult, though,

because of two factors: first, Kerouac was an Excellent writer. If

one is writing a biography of Michael Jordan the subject's expertise is

not in the medium the biographer is using. But Kerouac is even a

difficult subject among biographies of writers because of the nature of

his writing subject matter. In his many forms, most of Kerouac's

writings are in a fairly clear way autobiographical fiction. This means

that the biographer is in competition with the subject right from the

start.

As for the difference between Charters and Nicosia and McNally and the

others, it seems that all are useful to the serious fan of Kerouac (i've

not yet read all of them so hence don't yet qualify as serious). From

the segmenets i've read of each it seems that they are all better than

the other for specific target audiences. It seems McNally's to be the

best for an introductory socio-cultural view of Kerouac for the less

than heavy scholar. Nicosia is the best for the scholar - hands down.

And Charters (whose biography should probably be considered as

supplemented by the selected letters i would think) is a less academic

and more intimate style. Depending upon the audience or the mood of the

individual reader, it seems that one or another biography is best.

Errors in one are corrected in others and vice versa. It is probably

the case that the best biography of any individual is a synthesis of all

the biographies.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:04:39 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosiau

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Levi Asher wrote:

> R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> > It is to some degree a matter of taste, but I don't think that there really

> > is grounds for comparison of the two. They fill two different roles. If

you

> > want to know about JKerouac in detail, clearly you should be read Memory

> > Babe. If you are interested in a superficial treatment of JK, then Charters

> > is the book for you. I think most people on this list would state that

> > Memory Babe is the best biography of Jack Kerouac. What has been said on

> No offense Bentz but I don't think this is necessarily true. I liked

> both books but I'd have to say Charters achieved the same thing with

> half as many words. I found her biography ("Kerouac") incredibly

> powerful, and wouldn't have changed a thing. Bigger isn't always

> better. And brevity is the soul of wit, and all that.

> I will concede, though, that Nicosia's book is the one the serious

> Kerouac scholar will rely on. But that doesn't make it less

> "superficial" -- anyway I don't think either book was in any

> way superficial. Superficial people don't tend to become obsessed

> with Kerouac -- that's the way I see it.

> ---------------------------------------------------------

> | Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |

> | |

> | Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

> | (the beat literature web site) |

> | |

> | "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |

> | (a real book, like on paper) |

> | also at http://coffeehousebook.com |

> | |

> | *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |

> | |

> | "Nothing is capsulized in me, on either side of town" |

> | -- Joni Mitchell |

> ---------------------------------------------------------

intimate seems a more accurate term than superficial i would think with

regards to the different styles. i'm all for verbosity since i suffer

that illness though too. perhaps which biography depends on which

personality I or another reader are wearing (like switching hats) at any

time.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 07:44:25 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

i would say that it is not charters vs nicosia, but charters, then nicosia.

charters bushwhacked the first biography, with many roadblocks, nicosia is more

in depth it's, true, but i wouldn't call it superficial per se.

R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> Nancy:

> It is to some degree a matter of taste, but I don't think that there really

> is grounds for comparison of the two. They fill two different roles. If you

> want to know about JKerouac in detail, clearly you should be read Memory

> Babe. If you are interested in a superficial treatment of JK, then Charters

> is the book for you. I think most people on this list would state that

> Memory Babe is the best biography of Jack Kerouac. What has been said on

> this list has nothing to do with the quality of Nicosia's work. Gerry says

> that when someone can have access to his work, plus Jack's pocket notebooks,

> then a better book than Memory Babe will be written. Of course, that will

> depend on whether or not such a writer is granted free editorial content as

> well.

> The best way to find out, is to read them both. I liked both of them, but

> for entirely different reasons. And, I read Charters first.

> Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

> > Whose bio of JK is better, Charter or Nicosia? Ive heard negative things

> > about Nicosia but nothing about Charters. This is rhetorical, I know,

> > but..anyone care to venture an opinion? Thanks.

> >

> > The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

> > Sure-JK

> --

> Peace,

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:20:52 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: Visions of Gerard

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

diane: i too need to reread before contributing. i'm just hoping oour little

po dunk library here in montpelier has a copy as i has no cash.

Diane Carter wrote:

> Reading _Visions of Gerard_ I have to wonder if the story told here isn't

> really the key to the sense of despair that inevitably topples Kerouac's

> joy of life described in all of his other books. It seems that at four

> years old, the question was asked, that was continually asked throughout

> Kerouac's adult life: What is the meaning of life in the face of one's

> own mortality? It also seems to me that his parents' reactions to

> Gerard's death, more or less set the course for his thinking for the rest

> of his life.

> There seems to be three key realizations in Visions of Gerard:

> 1. "And there's no doubt in my heart that my mother loves Gerard more

> than she loves me."

> No matter what Jack does for the rest of his life he is competing with

> the memory of Gerard as a symbol of true goodness, and no matter how hard

> he tries his mother will always love Gerard more than him.

> 2. From Gerard's own manner of accepting death, Jack senses Gerard is not

> afraid of death and that death is good.

> "I don't remember how Gerard died, but (in my memory, which is limited

> and mundane) here I am running pellmell out of the house about 4 o'clock

> in the afternoon and down the sidewalks of Beaulieu Street yelling to my

> father whom I've seen coming around the corner woeful and slow with

> strawhat back and coat over arms in the summer heat, gleefully yelling

> 'Gerard est mort!" (Gerard is dead!) as tho it were some great event that

> would make a change that would make everything better, which it actually

> was, which granted it actually was."

> After watching his parent's reaction to death, there is a sudden and

> great change in his thinking:

> "Truth that cracks open in my head like an oyster, and I see it, the

> house disappears in her Swarm of Snow, Gerard is dead and the soul is

> dead and the world is dead and dead is dead."

> 3. Kerouac's idealism is linked to his vision of Gerard, his sense of

> self-worth is linked to Gerard, his writing is linked to Gerard.

> "An old dream too I've had of me glooping, that night, in the parlor, by

> Gerard's coffin. I dont see him in the coffin but he's there, his ghost,

> brown ghost, and I'm grown sick in my papers (my writing papers, my

> bloody 'literary career' ladies and gentlemen) and the whole reason I

> why ever wrote at all and drew breath to bite in vain with pen of ink,

> great gad with indefensible Usable pencil, because of Gerard, the

> idealism, Gerard the religious hero--'Write in honor of his death'..."

> In writing in honor of Gerard's death, however, Kerouac continually is

> brought to the point where he is posing the question asked in this book:

> "Why should such hearts be made to wince and cringe and groan out life's

> breath?--why does God kill us?" Both Christianity and Buddhism offer

> paths through these questions, but Kerouac chose this answer:

> "We all die? We're all piles of you-know-what? Liars? Poor? Invalids?

> Well then! I drink! Open the door, belly, gimme another chance. He gets

> his other chance, dances jigs till ten, and sleeps at noon. What he does

> at 4 o'clock in the afternoon is in its poor selfsame essence no

> different than what the mournful ladies with their beads and moving-lips,

> in the shadows of the church, are doing--For, the truth that is

> realizable in dead men's bones ought to be a good enough truth for

> everybody, laughers, cryers, cynics, and hopers included, all--The truth

> that is realizable in dead men's bones, all great gloomy unwilling life

> aside, and setting aside my knighthood to thus say so, exhilirates yea

> exterminates all symbols and bosses and crosses and leaves that quiet

> blank--For my part, the news about truth came of the silence of my

> predecessor diers' graves.

> Sicken if you will, this gloomy book's foretold."

> Truth is realizable in dead men's bones is an awesome statement. It also

> cuts off the possibility of truth in living, of finding one's own way

> through suffering, of finding meaning in life regardless of what one

> believes happens at death.

> This got too long and I should have divided it into more than

> one post. But I'm hoping some others of you will have some thoughts

> about the ideas put forth in _Visions of Gerard_ and will break this down

> into further areas of discussion.

> DC

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 8-9,15-19

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:21:49 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jim Dimock <juancito@JUNO.COM>

Subject: Re: Visions of Gerard

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Diane, beautiful analysis of "Gerard." One passage I noted with special

interest was when Gerard and Ti Jean were playing with the kitten. To

Gerard, the way we treat others, especially those at our mercy, determine

whether we are deserving of Heaven. This seems to be a theme throughout

the Duluoz legend, but is sidetracked by the introduction of Cody

(Cassady), who only to lives for himself. It would seem that the two

approaches to life are at odds, and the older Kerouac tried to restore

his earlier beliefs while down playing the self-indulgences of his adult

years.

Seems like I saw somewhere (Levi's Literary Kicks?) that the death of

Tyke in "Big Sur" was a metaphor for the earlier death of Gerard. Then

there is the poor, flea-bitten kitten of Tristessa. Kerouac's kittens

evoke perseverance in the face of "all life is suffering," and the meek

and beatific, while perhaps not inheriting the earth, surely will inhabit

Heaven.

Best to all,

Jim

_____________________________________________________________________

You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.

Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com

Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:26:25 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: sorry all

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

adrien, could you email me privately? i lost yr address in the latest

crash and burn of hard drive.

thanks

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Priority: normal

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 03:27:30 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jaroslav Gagan <GAGAN@DINF.FSV.CVUT.CZ>

Organization: Stavebni fakulta CVUT, Praha

Subject: Prague Beat Generation Fest 1998

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Dear BEAT-L Colleagues,

this year we celebrating the BEAT GENERATION as the focal theme

of the 7th International Book Fair, Prague, Czech Republic

(April, 19-24, 1998).

Programme:

On the (Beat) Road - exhibition about Czech and American beat generation

incl. secret documentary why was Allen Ginsberg

expelleed from Czechoslovakia, 1965.

Nonstop Ferlinghetti - three days and nights reading poetry

in Church St.Salvator, Prague.

13th Prague Jazz Days - contemporary jazz with plays "Unfair

Arguments With Existence" by L. Ferlighetti

(European premiere)

7th International Book Fair - incl. exhibit-stand City Lights Bookstore

(replica - 1956)

Seminar about Beat Generation

Honoured guest: Lawrence Ferlinghetti

-------------------------------------

The Prague Beat Generation Fest is for the first time in Czech Republic

and Eastern Europe. We should like ask all beat friends for assistance

with books, magazines, photos, films, memories, posters, etc. which can

be exhibit. We should like invite publishers to Prague and we will give

them 20% reduction from price. Publishers which print only 1,2,3,...

beat books can send it us for special exhibit place.

The organizer is nonprofit, nonpolitical and cultural organization which

was founded in 1971. Many members were arrested by last communism regime

for their independent cultural activity and many world artists sent protest

to last Czechoslovak president (for ex. L.Ferlinghetti, E.Albee, K.Vonegut,

J.Updike, M.Albright, A.Ginsberg, T.Stoppard, A.Miller, J.Morrison,

S.Sontag, W.Styron, E.L.Doctorow, P.McCartney, Sting, P.Townshend, L.Weber,

J.Baez, E.Ionesco, W.Marsalis, Y.Menuhin, I.Murdoch, ...)

Karel S r p

Please write: ARTFORUM - Jazzova sekce

Valdstejnska 14

118 00 Praha 1

Czech Republic (Europe)

or fax: ++420-2-535174

or e-mail: gagan@fsv.cvut.cz

Have a nice day.

JaG

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

Ing.Jaroslav GAGAN Stavebni fakulta CVUT - Katedra inzenyrske informatiky

166 29 Praha 6, Thakurova 7 tel: ++420-2-24354536

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

Bye, Blues Brothers & Blues Sisters.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:50:17 +0000

Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

I thought Tom Clark's Kerouac bio packed a punch, but maybe that's

because I read it in a day.

-Hasbrouck

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:56:17 +0000

Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: highly academic pseudo-language

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:

> sometimes it seems that the distinction drawn that these folks thoughts

> cannot be translated into everyday presentations of living is precisely

> the reason that WSB's suggestion that the intellectual is a deviant.

> DR

Where does Burroughs suggest this?

-Hasbrouck

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 03:57:02 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John J Dorfner <Jjdorfner@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosiau

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

levi...great thought..."superficial people don't tend to become obsessed with

Kerouac..." i think that statement says it all. i'm going to say that exact

quote the next time someone asks me "what's so great about jack kerouac?"

it's almost as good as "if you can't hear it...you'll never understand it."

JCH

and i'm not even going to comment on the Charters vs Nicosia "thing"...

i respect both of them way to much for that. and love both of the books.

john j dorfner

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 03:06:08 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Cheyanne C Ritz wrote:

> Any comments?? I'd really be interested on any comments

> on this poem. Heck, get a whole discussion going.

> Thanks,

> ><CYAN><

welcome to Chaos.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Sender: hlinh@pop.student.uib.no

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:17:41 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nils-Xivind Haagensen <hlinh@POP.STUDENT.UIB.NO>

Subject: to diane carter

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

hi diane,

could you do me a big favour and mail your "visions of gerard" letter of

february 2nd (or 3rd?) to my adress: nils-oivind.haagensen@lili.uib.no

thank you!

i'd love to discuss the book with you but want to read it again first, such

a long time since i read it,

thanks again

nils

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Content-MD5: 6qCyw9YdCekj7WXRcolwrg==

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:30:23 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nicolai Pharao <nicpha@CPHLING.DK>

Subject: Re: unsuccesful cut-ups (Maggie).

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

There is no need to use a "cut-up machine". All you need is text and a pair of

scissors. Not all of them bring interesting results right away, but I did once

experience making a very poetic cut-up from romance and suspense short stories

from trashy magazines, a cut-up that made very little "sense" at the time, but

when I found it in one of my drawers about 2 years later, it made perfect sense

and was no longer surprising that it had been written at that time even if I

didn't understand it then.

Keep trying!

Nic

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 05:31:02 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject: Geneaology of Town and the City (was Re: the scary WSB/"highly

academic pseudo-language"

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Bill Gargan wrote:

> Such scholarly posts as those on WSB are really what Beat-l needs more

> of. There's been entirely too much useless chit chat as of late. Let's

> keep such scholarly discussions going.

Foucault's writing is as impenetrable as mine (or more so), but i do

find much interest in the concept of geneaology as applied literally

rather than merely figuratively to non-family notions.

With Kerouac and other authors we often find something akin to

geneaologies for their entire live's writings (or typings). This seems

much to wide a swipe.

Beginning with the publication of Town and the City we can create

several sorts of geneaologies tracing figuratively into the roots of the

tree and probably can trace branches of other writers that stem from the

trunk of T&C.

It seems that several genealogical roots projects are possible. One is

literary influences. It sounds as though the main influence in style is

Thomas Wolfe and so the current thread barely breathing is a

geneaological thrust in examining Town and the City closely. In other

words, to understand the author's point of view and motives as writer

one must come to the plate with a sense of Wolfe. The understanding of

Wolfe will have it's own geneaology etc. etc. etc. (as Yul Brenner

said).

Other threads might include personal associations. These would

certainly influence the writing of T&C. What other roots are part of

the influence geneaology?

Moving upward, it is tempting to only follow the course directed by JK

and examine the synthetic combination of his collected works. But an

alternative geneaological approach is to examine the branches of writing

and influences directly deriving from the influence of the single book

T&C.

>From the examinations i've gleaned on various web sites it appears that

there is "some" information relevant to such an approach, but people who

know much more about this than I would have to contribute to the

familial literary search in order for such a geneaological thread to

have significance.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 05:32:27 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject: Re: Thomas Wolfe

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Gene Lee wrote:

> Hey all

> Just thought i would throw in my two cents here- Thomas Wolfe was an

> amazing author! And also a key influence on the young JK. But... I dont think

> any American author of his time quite captures the romance of early 20th

> Century America as Wolfe did. He was an enormous man with an enourmous

> appetite for living and life and writing- much as JK was. And like JK- he had

> discipline problems- with his life and his works. So sad- but genius aint

> easy- not that i would know personally! Bummer- but maybe in the next life.

> Gene

I would think that others were also enormous. What literary

characteristics distinguish Wolfe? How do these characteristics

influence Kerouac's T&C?

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 05:39:22 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject: Re: highly academic pseudo-language

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:

> Cathy Wilkie wrote:

> > I don't think the people that speak the

> > "highly academic pseudo-language" REALIZE they are UNINTENTIONALLY

> > BLOCKING people like me from UNDERSTANDING their concepts. I think they

> > talk that way and think everyone else can automatically understand it.

> === Yes and no...In most of these instances that I've read, just in this

> first week since I've joined the list, most of this stuff just cannot be

> put in simpler terms....there is no simpler way to say

> "self-referential", "epistemology", "metaphysical", blah blah

> blah....even though some of the stuff that comes across this list may

> look like needlessly verbose horseshit, it isn't. The ideas behind some

> of it may be pure crap, but there's nothing wrong with the way they're

> expressing it. No one can be expected to provide a complete glossary of

> terms in each and every post; but there's nothing stopping anyone from

> diving in asking questions.

> However, I *AM* on your side, because it seems to me that very few here

> are actually trying to communicate with others; their postings are

> almost like they're posting an essay on a bulletin board and walking

> away. If there's something you don't understand, don't be afraid to

> stand up and ask, ask a hundred questions, that's what these lists are

> supposed to be for, they're discussion groups. There will inevitably be

> assholes who will make groaning holier-than-thou comments with an air of

> superiority, but just ignore them. The ones who think they know the most

> about Beat only know trivia, not the heart and soul of the matter.

> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> J.S.Holland, Kentucky

> looking for my bottle of cholula

> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

the way that it is translated to "the nutshell viewpoint" is by giving

GOOD and SPECIFIC Examples not only from text but also from everyday

living (fishing and hunting is how my Aristotle prof expressed

everything).

certainly someone like Heidegger is more understandable just by knowing

that much of his writings are the result of his meandering mind while

his body meanders through the Black Forest -- just as WSB does a bit in

Retreat Diaries.

bringing "high-brow" ideas into the realm of the everyday can be done.

the people who coined and penned six billion dollar words were people -

they put on their pants and shoes just like y'all and I.

sometimes it seems that the distinction drawn that these folks thoughts

cannot be translated into everyday presentations of living is precisely

the reason that WSB's suggestion that the intellectual is a deviant.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Content-MD5: DcWOvf159hWv44dTms3v8w==

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:46:17 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nicolai Pharao <nicpha@CPHLING.DK>

Subject: Re: the scary WSB(Mark)

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

As far as I know it affected his life deeply. I don't remember what he has said

about loving Joan, but I once read an interview where he stated that the

shooting of Joan was what forced him to write. WSB believed to have been

possesed by the Ugly Spirit and that made him kill her. I think he said

something about Joan's death and the Ugly Spirit being his motivation for

writing untill Ginsberg performed and exorcism on him in the 80ies, but am not

sure.

Nic

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Sender: mapaul@pop.pipeline.com

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:01:25 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

I think McNally's and Clark's are better ! P.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

Henry David Thoreau

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Content-MD5: tbMwBcXm1+hDnxEqOHkHog==

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:04:03 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nicolai Pharao <nicpha@CPHLING.DK>

Subject: Re: WSB and The Third Mind

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

last i heard it was out of print. haven't been able to find it anywhere

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:29:05 +0000

Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski cxonnection

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:

> What endeared WSB most to Korzybski's theory of general semantics was

> the way in which it showed the errors of Aristotelian thinking - the

> "either/or" simplistic way of thinking that is curiously evident on this

> list even now, what with the heated and pointless arguments about

> "pedophilia bad!" versus "pedophilia good!" and the Charters vs. Nicosia

> debate. In short, in addition to Yes/no, right/wrong, good/evil, the

> Universe contains a MAYBE.....and it is this elemental Maybe that occurs

> most often, despite humans' efforts to reduce everything to Brand A or

> Brand X, liberal vs. conservative, Coke vs. Pepsi, or God and the Devil.

Mr. Holland,

Which works by Aristotle delineate this position?

- John Hasbrouck

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:43:38 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject: the WSB-Korzybski cxonnection

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

WSB first got into Korzybski in the 1930's after reading his "Science &

Sanity"; he attended five of Korzybski's lectures in 1939.

What endeared WSB most to Korzybski's theory of general semantics was

the way in which it showed the errors of Aristotelian thinking - the

"either/or" simplistic way of thinking that is curiously evident on this

list even now, what with the heated and pointless arguments about

"pedophilia bad!" versus "pedophilia good!" and the Charters vs. Nicosia

debate. In short, in addition to Yes/no, right/wrong, good/evil, the

Universe contains a MAYBE.....and it is this elemental Maybe that occurs

most often, despite humans' efforts to reduce everything to Brand A or

Brand X, liberal vs. conservative, Coke vs. Pepsi, or God and the Devil.

To Korzybski, a printed or spoken word was emphatically not the thing it

represented, and WSB jumped on this concept and ran with it, eager to

bring about the desconstruction, if not the destruction, of language.

This may seem simplistic, but there really is a problem with how words

build up like cholesterol in our subconcious with preconceptions about

all things, and limit our ability to think in non-linear terms. Anyone

who is truly fluent in a second language unconsciously understands this.

This doesn't even begin to cover it all, but it's the basics.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Jeffrey Scott Holland - Kentucky

the vampire who loved garlic

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:26:35 +0000

Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski connection

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:

> Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:

> > >

> > > What endeared WSB most to Korzybski's theory of general semantics was

> > > the way in which it showed the errors of Aristotelian thinking - the

> > > "either/or" simplistic way of thinking that is curiously evident on this

<snip>

> and then John Hasbrouck asked:

> > Mr. Holland,

> >

> > Which works by Aristotle delineate this position?

> and now JSH replies:

> === which position? the "either/or" way of looking at things is basic

> fundamental Aristotelian logic, look it up. Korzybski proposed that

> things are more dimensional than that, and that rather than look at

> things in Aristotle's either/or logic, we should be using more concepts

> like "maybe", "sometimes", and "sort-of". Korzybski decried what he saw

> as flaws in Aristotlian logic's adherence to the yes/no duality. As I

> already stated above.

Mr. Holland,

I am refering to the position you ascribe to Aristotle. I will be happy

to look it up if only you will only tell me whence I might do so. From

your posts I assume that you've read Aristotle as well as Korzybski. Is

my assumption correct?

- John Hasbrouck

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 16:35:48 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski connection

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:

> >

> > What endeared WSB most to Korzybski's theory of general semantics was

> > the way in which it showed the errors of Aristotelian thinking - the

> > "either/or" simplistic way of thinking that is curiously evident on this

> > list even now, what with the heated and pointless arguments about

> > "pedophilia bad!" versus "pedophilia good!" and the Charters vs. Nicosia

> > debate. In short, in addition to Yes/no, right/wrong, good/evil, the

> > Universe contains a MAYBE.....and it is this elemental Maybe that occurs

> > most often, despite humans' efforts to reduce everything to Brand A or

> > Brand X, liberal vs. conservative, Coke vs. Pepsi, or God and the Devil.

and then John Hasbrouck asked:

> Mr. Holland,

> Which works by Aristotle delineate this position?

and now JSH replies:

=== which position? the "either/or" way of looking at things is basic

fundamental Aristotelian logic, look it up. Korzybski proposed that

things are more dimensional than that, and that rather than look at

things in Aristotle's either/or logic, we should be using more concepts

like "maybe", "sometimes", and "sort-of". Korzybski decried what he saw

as flaws in Aristotlian logic's adherence to the yes/no duality. As I

already stated above.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Jeffrey Scott Holland - Ky

high on ice cream

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 16:47:39 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject: Brinkley's Kerouac bio

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Richard Wallner wrote:

> Both are good books...but the best Kerouac bio is yet to come. Neither

> Nicosia or Charters had access to all of Kerouac's journals and papers.

> Douglas Brinkley has been chosen by the Sampas family to write the

> "authorized" biography, the first written with full access to the

> papers. Im sure Brinkley willdo a terrific job, provided Sampas doesnt

> try to edit it as he did the letters.

=== I wish Brinkley would find a way to surreptitiously photocopy

everything and then leak it to the world.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ky

Jeffrey

Scott

Holland

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= still eatin' ice cream

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:58:00 +0000

Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski connection

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:

> It may well be that Aristotle may have been a deeper guy than these

> Non-Aristotelian upstarts give him credit for, and that all these

> people's references to his shortcomings are gross oversimplifications on

> THEIR part, and that Aristotle is simply getting a bad rep from writers

> and researchers who are overly eager to trash anything traditional. But

> I doubt it.

I think we can agree to disagree on this point.

Thank you for your response.

John Hasbrouck

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 16:03:55 +0000

Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: Korzybski and Aristotle

Comments: To: Sean Young <Sean.Young@DSW.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Sean,

Thanks for posting the Korzybski passage.

It provided much-needed clarification.

I now withdraw from this thread.

John Hasbrouck

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:09:16 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject: Re: WSB-Huncke connection

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

> Did you know that Herbert Huncke gave WSB his very first shot? I found

> that out today, from the Huncke Reader I told y'all about.

=== Huncke is not world reknowned for his honesty.....according to Ted

Morgan, WSB was selling and using Junk when the two met for the first

time. WSB offered to sell some Junk and some guns to Huncke and another

guy, that's how they met. I don't know who's right and who's wrong, of

course - I wasn't there, obviously - but I tend to believe WSB & Morgan

over Huncke.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Jeffrey Scott Holland - ky

listening to distant sirens

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:26:02 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski cxonnection

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Leon Tabory wrote:

> For example I haven't seen anyone suggest that pedophilia may be good.

=== Well, I think that's what it amounts to, when someone tries to

rationalize that sex with young teens is not pedophilia, and that it's

'very common in other countries'. But puh-leeeeze, let's bury the

pedothread. I'm sorry I brought it up again.

> and even if I like Korzybski's ideas, general

> semantics etc., I still will consider some things good and some things bad.

=== so do I, and so did Korzybski, I'm sure, but the trick is keep

perspective that even so, these are only our opinions and not empirical

facts.

> Ditto for the biography preferences questions. The questions raised and

> explanations of preferences given were quite interesting and valid to me. I

> didsn't see any either/or dichotomies there.

=== The whole name of the thread, "Charters vs. Nicosia", virtually

screams it from the rooftop. There is no need to look at the two in

"vs." terms, they're both fine books. The real argument is not with the

books anyway but the politicking and goings-on with the Kerouac estate

and Sampas.

> Excuse me, I am fluent in more than two languages and I believe you are

> basically wrong about your conclusions regarding the posts that you saw

=== My reference to being multi-lingual had absolutely nothing to do

with those posts, I was talking about something else by that point. I

was referring to the heightened sense of awareness one gains regarding

language when one is multi-lingual.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

J.S.Holland, ky

getting really

tired of saying

everything twice

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:47:36 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Wittgenstein, Derrida, all those guys and the Beats

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>Much of Burroughs work is similar to deconstructionism and Wittgenstien.

>I don't whetever he directly influcened by them or by Korbynski(who

>himself ripped off Wittgenstein). I'm going for the latter.

According to all the bios Burroughs was really into Korbynski and something

called general Semantics.

I only know the name from Kerouac and Burroughs bios; Count Alfred

Korbynski as I recall.

>in his WSB was

>trying to show the lanugage controls perception and thinking and/or

>cultural values. It has a touch of mystiscm to it.

I think this would be an understatement, the touch of mysticism.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:49:46 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski connection

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

John Hasbrouck wrote:

> Mr. Holland,

> I am refering to the position you ascribe to Aristotle. I will be happy

> to look it up if only you will only tell me whence I might do so. From

> your posts I assume that you've read Aristotle as well as Korzybski. Is

> my assumption correct?

=== I haven't read Aristotle since high school and hope not to read him

again in this lifetime. However, I have read plenty of diverse sources

over the years that also refer to the linear, simplistic nature of his

logic, as compared to, say, Hegel or more importantly, Quantum Physics.

Korzybski is the one who said the traditional and classical logic of

Aristotle is incomplete, not me, though in principle I embrace the idea

myself.

One need not have read Aristotle to have read about Aristotelian logic

and know what it is, just as I have never read Sir Isaac Newton, but

have an understanding of gravity - a better one, in fact, than if I had

read only Newton.

It may well be that Aristotle may have been a deeper guy than these

Non-Aristotelian upstarts give him credit for, and that all these

people's references to his shortcomings are gross oversimplifications on

THEIR part, and that Aristotle is simply getting a bad rep from writers

and researchers who are overly eager to trash anything traditional. But

I doubt it.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

J.S. Holland, ky

spice o' mac vauti

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

MR-Received: by mta FIRNVX; Relayed; Tue, 03 Feb 1998 12:15:25 -0500

Alternate-recipient: prohibited

Posting-date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 12:15:00 -0500 (EST)

Importance: normal

Priority: normal

UA-content-id: E153ZXFSHIA30

X400-MTS-identifier: [;52512130208991/1812163@FIRNVX]

A1-type: MAIL

Hop-count: 1

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:14:56 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "James F. Wood 253-7886" <WOODJ@MAIL.FIRN.EDU>

Subject: Cut ups

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Would like to hear more about the cup ups, this is like a collage?

Thanks

Jim

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Sender: cake@ionline.net

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:16:21 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: Wittgenstein, Derrida, all those guys and the Beats

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

At 08:47 AM 2/3/98 -0800, you wrote:

>According to all the bios Burroughs was really into

>Korbynski and something called general Semantics.

Alfred Korzybski was a linguist and he started the approach

of general semantics. It focuses on how people evaluate

words and how that evalution influences their behaviour.

Hope that is a help?

Mike

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:47:18 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Yes, Nancy, please send us full information including date, time, and address.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:52:29 +0000

Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>

Organization: art language wholsale retail

Subject: Re: WSB-Huncke connection

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:

> Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

> >

> > Did you know that Herbert Huncke gave WSB his very first shot? ...<snip>...

> === Huncke is not world reknowned for his honesty.....according to Ted

> Morgan, WSB was selling and using Junk when the two met for the first

> time. WSB offered to sell some Junk and some guns to Huncke and another

> guy, that's how they met....<snip>

its been more than 20 years since i read junkie, but doesn't burroughs

say there that he took his first shot at that time? that hunkie showed

him how to use the morphene syretts without needles....i think....

tkc

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:57:12 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski cxonnection

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Leon Tabory wrote:

> Since you are sparing no words in enlightening us about deficient

> epistomologies and linguistic philosophies

=== uh, hello, I have NO idea what you are talking about. I was only

reporting what I knew of Korzybski's beliefs, not making any

"enlightening" proclamations of my own.

> Another question for you: Got any ideas at what age sexual activities

> commonly start today?

=== As I already indicated, I lost my virginity at 12. But the relevance

of your question escapes me.

> It is not about pedophilia, it is about your

> glib cricicisms of our "simpleminded" posts.

=== Who is "our"? I never called your posts or anyone else's posts

simpleminded. But maybe it's time I started.

"Glib", huh? Nixon called Kennedy glib.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

J.S Holland, ky

wishing Ginsberg were

here to go "OMMMMMMMMM"

for us all

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:00:38 +0000

Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>

Organization: art language wholsale retail

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Richard Wallner wrote:

...snip... Douglas Brinkley has been chosen by the Sampas family to

write the

> "authorized" biography,...snip....

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:46:35 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject: Re: Korzybski and Aristotle

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Korzybki, by way of Sean Young, wrote:

> "I wish to emphasize here that in discussing the inadequacy of the

> Aristotelian system in 1950, I in no way disparage the remarkable and

> unprecedented work of Aristotle about 350 B.C.

=== Thanks for posting this, Sean, I was too lazy to go looking for

relevant quotes myself.

This will hopefully appease the people who mistankenly think I am

claiming that Korzybski was Aristotle-bashing. I myself am certainly

appeased, since Korzybski uses the word "inadequacy" to describe the

Aristotelian system. "Inadequacy" probably should have been the word I

originally used in my first post, rather than "errors" but that word

came from WSB and besides, it's all semantics anyway ;)

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==

Jeffrey Holland - kentucky

deep in the heart of darkest America

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:59:23 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gene Lee <GTL1951@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Thomas Wolfe

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Hey

I never bothered to disect Wolfe when I read him- I just enjoyed the

power of his words. As i haven't read T&C due to an inability to find a copy

and it being the only book of JK's I haven't read- i am not gonna do a

comparison. I do know that JK always spoke of Wolfe as being a huge influence

on him.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:04:42 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

I posted this info yesterday. Perhaps, for those of you that didnt catch

it, someone can fwd it you. I dont feel like writing the whole thing out

again. But the first show is this sunday at anthology archives on 2nd St.

On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Bill Gargan wrote:

> Yes, Nancy, please send us full information including date, time, and address.

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:05:45 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject: WSB-Huncke connection

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Did you know that Herbert Huncke gave WSB his very first shot? I found

that out today, from the Huncke Reader I told y'all about.

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-MSMail-Priority: Normal

X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 11:21:07 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski cxonnection

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

-----Original Message-----

From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tuesday, February 03, 1998 10:19 AM

Subject: the WSB-Korzybski cxonnection

<<SNIP>>

the

>"either/or" simplistic way of thinking that is curiously evident on this

>list even now, what with the heated and pointless arguments about

>"pedophilia bad!" versus "pedophilia good!" and the Charters vs. Nicosia

>debate. In short, in addition to Yes/no, right/wrong, good/evil, the

>Universe contains a MAYBE.....

I have more of a problem with the intimidatingly skillful slinging of

masterfully constructed words than with the "simplistic" thinking lately on

the list.

For example I haven't seen anyone suggest that pedophilia may be good. There

were some questions raised when a person may be considered grown up enough.

Good question. Good considerations. Even if I do not divide everything

between good and bad, and even if I like Korzybski's ideas, general

semantics etc., I still will consider some things good and some things bad.

Ditto for the biography preferences questions. The questions raised and

explanations of preferences given were quite interesting and valid to me. I

didsn't see any either/or dichotomies there.

<<SNIP>>

Anyone

>who is truly fluent in a second language unconsciously understands this.

>>This doesn't even begin to cover it all, but it's the basics.

Excuse me, I am fluent in more than two languages and I believe you are

basically wrong about your conclusions regarding the posts that you saw,

even if you might understand Korzybski's theories perfectly well.

leon

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

>Jeffrey Scott Holland - Kentucky

>the vampire who loved garlic

>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Errors-To: <vorys@concentric.net>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:32:35 -0600

Reply-To: vorys@concentric.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: vorys <vorys@CONCENTRIC.NET>

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

In the early 80's I saw an unpublished booklet about 70 pages in length.

It was titled Marginalia to Kerouac. They were Ginsbergs personal notes

on the corrections to errors in Charter's book. This booklet may still

be in Naropa Institute's library or archives. I believe it was written

after Charter's book was published. I would like to know if Ann ever

corrected the errors.

For the sake of scholarship some researchers should know this existed.

It was 8 1/2 by 11 and bound at Kinkos with a protective report cover.

BTW: Both Nicosia and Charters books have merit, I've enjoyed and

recommend them both.

Thanks, Steve

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:44:59 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject: Re: Charters vs Nicosia

Comments: To: vorys <vorys@concentric.net>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Both are good books...but the best Kerouac bio is yet to come. Neither

Nicosia or Charters had access to all of Kerouac's journals and papers.

Douglas Brinkley has been chosen by the Sampas family to write the

"authorized" biography, the first written with full access to the

papers. Im sure Brinkley willdo a terrific job, provided Sampas doesnt

try to edit it as he did the letters.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Sender: gallaher@hsc.usc.edu

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:04:19 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Brinkley's Kerouac bio

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Will brinkley write this. yesterday Paul Mahr wrote

"Wait until you read Ellis Amburn's bio..."

Paul, are both Brinkley and Amburn writing a biography or just one of them?

At 04:47 PM 2/3/98 +0100, you wrote:

>Richard Wallner wrote:

>> Both are good books...but the best Kerouac bio is yet to come. Neither

>> Nicosia or Charters had access to all of Kerouac's journals and papers.

>> Douglas Brinkley has been chosen by the Sampas family to write the

>> "authorized" biography, the first written with full access to the

>> papers. Im sure Brinkley willdo a terrific job, provided Sampas doesnt

>> try to edit it as he did the letters.

>=== I wish Brinkley would find a way to surreptitiously photocopy

>everything and then leak it to the world.

>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ky

>Jeffrey

> Scott

> Holland

>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= still eatin' ice cream

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Content-Description: cc:Mail note part

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:36:06 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Sean Young <Sean.Young@DSW.COM>

Subject: Korzybski and Aristotle

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

here's Korzyski on Aristotle.

Peace,

Sean

---------------------------------------------------

"I wish to emphasize here that in discussing the inadequacy of the

Aristotelian system in 1950, I in no way disparage the remarkable and

unprecedented work of Aristotle about 350 B.C. I acknowledge

explicitly my profound admiration for his extraordinary genius,

particularly in consideration of the period in which he lived.

Nevertheless, the twisting of his system and the imposed immobility of

this twisted system, as enforced for nearly two thousand

years by the controlling groups, often under threats of torture and

death, have led and can only lead to more disasters. From what we know

about Aristotle and his writings, there is little doubt that, if

alive, he would not tolerate such twistings and artificial immobility

of the system usually ascribed to him."

Premises of non-Aristotelian thought (General Semantics)

"1.A map is not the territory. (Words are not the things they

represent.)

2.A map covers not all the territory. (Words cannot cover all they

represent.)

3.A map is self-reflexive. (In language we can speak about

language.)"

------- Alfred Korzybski, "The role of language in the perceptual

process.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Permission is hereby granted to share electronic and hard copy

versions of this text with individuals under circumstances in which no

direct payment is made by those to whom the text is given for the text

itself, the volume or other medium or online service in which it is

included, tuition or other payment for the course or seminar, and so

forth. This notice must remain a part of the text. Any other use is

reserved to the Institute of General Semantics and/or the author and

requires prior permission. For further information, e-mail the

Institute or write: The Institute of General Semantics, 163 Engle

Street, #4B, Englewood, NJ 07631, USA.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 22:44:36 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski cxonnection

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Jeff Taylor wrote:

> Isn't there just an obvious contradiction here? K (and WSB following

> him) insists that either/or logic is a basic error, but then in

> practically the same breath, they themselves insist on an either/or

> distinction: EITHER the word OR the thing.

=== *Do* they insist on a word/thing dichotomy? I hadn't thought of it

in that way. To say that "a thing and a word are not the same" is not

the same statement as "If it's not a thing, it must be a word". I assume

K and WSB both would have said that K's principles of semantics also

applies to itself, and that the idea can never be 100% perfectly stated,

only approached.

> A further irony is that this particular distinction is not even

> generally valid: while the word "table" is not itself a table, the

> word "word" *is* itself a word. So sometimes the word *can* be the

> thing it represents.

=== This is the rabbit-hole that WSB fell through, and went half insane

in the process, asking "what ARE words, really, anyway?". Your example

is only true as far as the Dictionary definition of a word goes, but

doesn't cover the unconscious (or not so unconscious) way we think of

words and carry them in our heads..as thoughtforms, or memes, sort

of....this is what WSB is getting at when he calls language a virus. We

all know what words mean generally, and if we don't we can just look

them up, but the point K was making is that the definition of a word

cannot be fully described - because to crystallize a thought into a word

automatically reduces it, codifies it like turning a rich analog signal

into choppy simple digital, makes it not the same thing.

> It seems to me that either/or logic, must, at at least some level, be

> correct.

=== either/or is certainly a necessary step in logical deduction, I

don't think anyone would dispute that. I interpret K as saying that it

can and should go further, however, to a higher level. Either/or

thinking is two dimensional, two directions; I think K was reaching for

three-dimensional or even four-dimensional thought. I wonder if K ever

read Edwin A.Abbott?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

J S H.......k e n t u c k y

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-MSMail-Priority: Normal

X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:48:30 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski cxonnection

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

-----Original Message-----

From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tuesday, February 03, 1998 1:14 PM

Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski cxonnection

>Leon Tabory wrote:

>> For example I haven't seen anyone suggest that pedophilia may be good.

>=== Well, I think that's what it amounts to, when someone tries to

>rationalize that sex with young teens is not pedophilia, and that it's

>'very common in other countries'.

Since you are sparing no words in enlightening us about deficient

epistomologies and linguistic philosophies let'shave a closer look at your

thought processes:

If someone says in some country teenagers considered sufficiently grown up

for sex, does that mean they say pedophilia is good?

BTW, do you realize that it wasn't so many generations ago that in the

western world also, thirteen year olds were considered old enough for legal

marriage? That was before they needed as much time as they do now to become

skilled in socio-economic

activities, not to reach sexual maturity.

Another question for you: Got any ideas at what age sexual activities

commonly start today? I take the question back because I want to take your

advice and drop this thread. It is not about pedophilia, it is about your

glib cricicisms of our "simpleminded" posts.

leon

But puh-leeeeze, let's bury the

>pedothread. I'm sorry I brought it up again.

>> and even if I like Korzybski's ideas, general

>> semantics etc., I still will consider some things good and some things

bad.

>=== so do I, and so did Korzybski, I'm sure, but the trick is keep

>perspective that even so, these are only our opinions and not empirical

>facts.

>> Ditto for the biography preferences questions. The questions raised and

>> explanations of preferences given were quite interesting and valid to me.

>> didsn't see any either/or dichotomies there.

>=== The whole name of the thread, "Charters vs. Nicosia", virtually

>screams it from the rooftop. There is no need to look at the two in

>"vs." terms, they're both fine books. The real argument is not with the

>books anyway but the politicking and goings-on with the Kerouac estate

>and Sampas.

>> Excuse me, I am fluent in more than two languages and I believe you are

>> basically wrong about your conclusions regarding the posts that you saw

>=== My reference to being multi-lingual had absolutely nothing to do

>with those posts, I was talking about something else by that point. I

>was referring to the heightened sense of awareness one gains regarding

>language when one is multi-lingual.

>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

>J.S.Holland, ky

>getting really

>tired of saying

>everything twice

>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Sender: cen00746@207.17.135.251 (Unverified)

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 16:57:24 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject: Re: Joyce, WSB, word play about word play

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

At 09:57 PM 1/29/98 EST, you wrote:

>In a message dated 29-Jan-98 6:55:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,

>gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU writes:

><< Finnegans Wake

> Finnegans of the world wake up

> >>

>thanks, tim... the second I sent it I thought I'd done it wrong. Maggie

Finnegan, Begin again..., with Kerouac stuff. I thought I had wandered

onto the Joyce list. Finnegan's Wake is inpenetrable, but Molly

Bloom's soliloqhy is the most wonderful payoff to Ulysses.

Mike

rice

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Content-Description: cc:Mail note part

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:15:37 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Sean Young <Sean.Young@DSW.COM>

Subject: General Semantics basic overview

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Hello all:

I posted this overview to clarify some General Semantics

misconceptions. It is from this Web site:

http://www.general-semantics.org/graphics/ghome.html

Sorry if it is overly long. When reading it also consider how

Burroughs expressed similar ideas. I believe it sheds light on what

Burroughs was doing with language in the cut-ups and his collage

methods. As in: trying to cut through wordlines and get to the

prerecordings themselves. Check out the above Web site's section on

Major Works and read "The role of language in the perceptual process"

by Korzybski. I myself have just started reading about General

Semantics and that is why I chose to use the GS instute's wording

here. Note the copyright at the bottom.

Peace and understanding to all.

Sean D. Young

-------------------------------------------------------------------

General-Semantics

....it's not semantics

....it's not just a matter of words

....it's an approach to living

How is it that we humans have advanced so far in science,

mathematics and technology, yet we demonstrate so much confusion,

misunderstanding, and violence in our interactions with others and

within ourselves?

This question led engineer and scholar Alfred Korzybski on a lifelong

quest to examine the structures behind the methods of science and then

to apply these structures generally to all areas of human existence.

This journey led him to study the new outlooks in physics, chemistry,

etc., the foundations of mathematics, psychiatry, etc., and to

formulate their most up-to-date principles into a practical, teachable

system for living. He called this system General Semantics ("g-s") and

introduced it in his major work, Science and Sanity, first printed in

1933 and now in its fifth edition. The book has inspired many

popularizations, over one hundred and fifty doctoral dissertations and

two journals.

General-Semantics teaches that life issues become clearer and

more manageable as we move toward:

* a better understanding of the background assumptions we bring to

a situation

* a willingness and an ability to make careful and clear

observations

* a willingness to continuously test, examine, evaluate, and change

our assumptions and behavior based on our observations.

G-S provides information, methods, structures, and practical

devices to assist us with the above goals

We Humans can be described as ...

Time-Binders -- Each generation, through symbols, especially language,

gains from and builds upon the experience of past generations. We

learn from each other, and pass on this knowledge. Korzybski called

this process "time-binding", and considered it important enough to

serve as a basis for defining humans.

Symbol Users -- Humans are symbol users and symbol manipulators.

Language, including the special language called "mathematics", is our

most important symbol system. How we use language determines the way

we think, our relationship with ourselves, others, and our world. Many

human problems can be traced to our ignorance of the ways we use

language and the ways language uses us.

Problem Solvers -- Critical thinking and creative problem solving are

basic human activities. Science and mathematics are examples of our

mosteffective problem solving activities -- effective in terms of

realizing goals. Effective problem solving requires an ability to

first clarify the issues involved (therefore to think critically) and

then apply creative processes to generate proposed solutions, which

are then critically evaluated.

General-Semantics and Problem Solving

G-S is a system which generalizes the principles and methods of

modern science to all areas of human activity. Its principles and

methods can be utilized to enhance our day to day activities and our

relationships.

Some Formulations of General-Semantics -- necessarily broad and

incomplete

We live in a world of constant change and uncertainty. Our

experience, knowledge and understanding have limits. Our lives are a

blend of different and sometimes conflicting relationships. Bringing

this into awareness is a step toward healthier living. When we

interact with an object, a person, or a situation, we form images and

create symbols. Initially these occur totally within ourselves and our

nervous systems. Our brains form these images and symbols by modelling

(mapping) the outside world and in the process filters out most

information. The selected information therefore always represents an

abstract of the interaction.

Different people select (abstract) information differently --

draw different maps of a territory.

Awareness of this abstracting process provides a key to

developing our potential as humans.

The symbols we form, the words we use are not the

object/situation in all its infinite characteristics.

Many of our personal misunderstandings arise when we act as if we

have all the information about anything or anyone.

No two objects or situations are exactly the same, but, for

convenience, we may categorize them. Treating them as if they were the

same --

ignoring their differences -- can lead to misunderstandings,

conflicts, and even tragedies.

We often confuse our symbols and maps with what they represent.

We benefit by remembering that the map is not the territory, the word

is not the thing. They are symbols we have created.

We are self-reflexive; we react to our reactions. This gives us

opportunities to improve what we believe, think, feel, see and do.

A Tool for Life

General-Semantics has been a useful discipline in helping people

with:

Personal relationships

Critical thinking

Professional development

Child raising

Adjustment to change

Communication

Industrial management

Problem solving

Decision making

Stress management

Conflict management

and more.....

General-Semantics...

...teaches us how symbols are related to experience so as to make

it less likely that we take too seriously the absurd or dangerous

nonsense that within every culture passes for philosophy, wisdom, and

political argument. --- Aldous Huxley

...helps us to understand ourselves better so that we can

understand others better. --- Karen Groshek

...like a bag of tools. When different situations arise you open

the bag and take out the tool that will help you with a particular

situation... --- A member of g-s discussion group

...experience shows that when the methods of general semantics

are applied, the results are usually beneficial, whether in law,

medicine, business, etc., be they in family, national, or

international fields. If they are not applied, but merely talked

about, no results can be expected.

--- Alfred Korzybski

-------------------------------------------------------------------

The Institute of General Semantics also has available for purchase

Books, Tapes, and Videos. Listings of materials, programs and

Institute membership are available on request. Request information by

e-mail.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Permission is hereby granted to share electronic and hard copy

versions of this text with individuals under circumstances in which no

direct payment is made by those to whom the text is given for the text

itself, the volume or other medium or online service in which it is

included, tuition or other payment for the course or seminar, and so

forth. This notice must remain a part of the text. Any other use is

reserved to the Institute of General Semantics and/or

the author and requires prior permission. For further information,

e-mail the Institute or write: The Institute of General Semantics, 163

Engle Street, #4B, Englewood, NJ 07631, USA.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 23:50:37 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject: One (was: the WSB-Korzybski connection)

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Jeff Taylor wrote:

> Did K say that NO idea can be perfectly stated? If he did, he's wrong

> about that, too: when we say "one", we have stated the idea of the

> number one as perfectly as perfect can be. 1 is *exactly* 1 and

> nothing else.

=== oh, come on! ....you can't possibly be serious.

what IS "one"? what IS the idea of the number one? how do you know?

prove it. Don't point to a book because I'll ask, how do your sources

know? can they prove it? how? Is one the first number? Or is it zero? I

thought integers were numbers, what about negative integers? How can

there be ANY first number with negative integers? When we say "one",

might we be referring not to the number so much as a person (i.e. "JSH

is the cute one" or "one might ask oneself")? The American Heritage

dictionary gives seven different distinct meanings for "one", and simply

saying "one" most assuredly does NOT state the idea perfectly. It only

seems like it if you ALREADY KNOW the idea of one. Assuming the listener

even speaks English. Does "Ein" have the same meaning as "One"? Does not

any word have different shades of personal meanings to each person? And

is it really the loneliest number that we'll ever do?

=-=-=-=

jsh

quack

=-=-=-=

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-MSMail-Priority: Normal

X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:57:44 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject: Re: General Semantics basic overview

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Sean,

Having gotten myself involved in reacting to putdowns, I especially

appreciate a review of the cooling understandings and tools of General

Semantics.

I had completely forgotten that in 1959 I had done a study at the request of

a man who led General Semantics training goups at San Quentin. The man did

it on his own time voluntarily. I will not rest until I recall his name.

Applying the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality test to his group before and

after their training we found a statistically significant improvement in

thinking processes. We reported the findings at a

conference at Napa State Hospital at the time. Thanks for bringing back a

pleasant memory.

leon

From: Sean Young <Sean.Young@DSW.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tuesday, February 03, 1998 2:31 PM

Subject: General Semantics basic overview

> Hello all:

> I posted this overview to clarify some General Semantics

> misconceptions. It is from this Web site:

> http://www.general-semantics.org/graphics/ghome.html

> Sorry if it is overly long. When reading it also consider how

> Burroughs expressed similar ideas. I believe it sheds light on what

> Burroughs was doing with language in the cut-ups and his collage

> methods. As in: trying to cut through wordlines and get to the

> prerecordings themselves. Check out the above Web site's section on

> Major Works and read "The role of language in the perceptual process"

> by Korzybski. I myself have just started reading about General

> Semantics and that is why I chose to use the GS instute's wording

> here. Note the copyright at the bottom.

> Peace and understanding to all.

> Sean D. Young

> -------------------------------------------------------------------

> General-Semantics

> ....it's not semantics

> ....it's not just a matter of words

> ....it's an approach to living

> How is it that we humans have advanced so far in science,

> mathematics and technology, yet we demonstrate so much confusion,

> misunderstanding, and violence in our interactions with others and

> within ourselves?

> This question led engineer and scholar Alfred Korzybski on a lifelong

> quest to examine the structures behind the methods of science and then

> to apply these structures generally to all areas of human existence.

> This journey led him to study the new outlooks in physics, chemistry,

> etc., the foundations of mathematics, psychiatry, etc., and to

> formulate their most up-to-date principles into a practical, teachable

> system for living. He called this system General Semantics ("g-s") and

> introduced it in his major work, Science and Sanity, first printed in

> 1933 and now in its fifth edition. The book has inspired many

> popularizations, over one hundred and fifty doctoral dissertations and

> two journals.

> General-Semantics teaches that life issues become clearer and

> more manageable as we move toward:

> * a better understanding of the background assumptions we bring to

> a situation

> * a willingness and an ability to make careful and clear

> observations

> * a willingness to continuously test, examine, evaluate, and change

> our assumptions and behavior based on our observations.

> G-S provides information, methods, structures, and practical

> devices to assist us with the above goals

> We Humans can be described as ...

> Time-Binders -- Each generation, through symbols, especially language,

> gains from and builds upon the experience of past generations. We

> learn from each other, and pass on this knowledge. Korzybski called

> this process "time-binding", and considered it important enough to

> serve as a basis for defining humans.

> Symbol Users -- Humans are symbol users and symbol manipulators.

> Language, including the special language called "mathematics", is our

> most important symbol system. How we use language determines the way

> we think, our relationship with ourselves, others, and our world. Many

> human problems can be traced to our ignorance of the ways we use

> language and the ways language uses us.

> Problem Solvers -- Critical thinking and creative problem solving are

> basic human activities. Science and mathematics are examples of our

> mosteffective problem solving activities -- effective in terms of

> realizing goals. Effective problem solving requires an ability to

> first clarify the issues involved (therefore to think critically) and

> then apply creative processes to generate proposed solutions, which

> are then critically evaluated.

> General-Semantics and Problem Solving

> G-S is a system which generalizes the principles and methods of

> modern science to all areas of human activity. Its principles and

> methods can be utilized to enhance our day to day activities and our

> relationships.

> Some Formulations of General-Semantics -- necessarily broad and

> incomplete

> We live in a world of constant change and uncertainty. Our

> experience, knowledge and understanding have limits. Our lives are a

> blend of different and sometimes conflicting relationships. Bringing

> this into awareness is a step toward healthier living. When we

> interact with an object, a person, or a situation, we form images and

> create symbols. Initially these occur totally within ourselves and our

> nervous systems. Our brains form these images and symbols by modelling

> (mapping) the outside world and in the process filters out most

> information. The selected information therefore always represents an

> abstract of the interaction.

> Different people select (abstract) information differently --

> draw different maps of a territory.

> Awareness of this abstracting process provides a key to

> developing our potential as humans.

> The symbols we form, the words we use are not the

> object/situation in all its infinite characteristics.

> Many of our personal misunderstandings arise when we act as if we

> have all the information about anything or anyone.

> No two objects or situations are exactly the same, but, for

> convenience, we may categorize them. Treating them as if they were the

> same --

> ignoring their differences -- can lead to misunderstandings,

> conflicts, and even tragedies.

> We often confuse our symbols and maps with what they represent.

> We benefit by remembering that the map is not the territory, the word

> is not the thing. They are symbols we have created.

> We are self-reflexive; we react to our reactions. This gives us

> opportunities to improve what we believe, think, feel, see and do.

> A Tool for Life

> General-Semantics has been a useful discipline in helping people

> with:

> Personal relationships

> Critical thinking

> Professional development

> Child raising

> Adjustment to change

> Communication

> Industrial management

> Problem solving

> Decision making

> Stress management

> Conflict management

> and more.....

> General-Semantics...

> ...teaches us how symbols are related to experience so as to make

> it less likely that we take too seriously the absurd or dangerous

> nonsense that within every culture passes for philosophy, wisdom, and

> political argument. --- Aldous Huxley

> ...helps us to understand ourselves better so that we can

> understand others better. --- Karen Groshek

> ...like a bag of tools. When different situations arise you open

> the bag and take out the tool that will help you with a particular

> situation... --- A member of g-s discussion group

> ...experience shows that when the methods of general semantics

> are applied, the results are usually beneficial, whether in law,

> medicine, business, etc., be they in family, national, or

> international fields. If they are not applied, but merely talked

> about, no results can be expected.

> --- Alfred Korzybski

> -------------------------------------------------------------------

> The Institute of General Semantics also has available for purchase

> Books, Tapes, and Videos. Listings of materials, programs and

> Institute membership are available on request. Request information by

> e-mail.

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

> Permission is hereby granted to share electronic and hard copy

> versions of this text with individuals under circumstances in which no

> direct payment is made by those to whom the text is given for the text

> itself, the volume or other medium or online service in which it is

> included, tuition or other payment for the course or seminar, and so

> forth. This notice must remain a part of the text. Any other use is

> reserved to the Institute of General Semantics and/or

> the author and requires prior permission. For further information,

> e-mail the Institute or write: The Institute of General Semantics, 163

> Engle Street, #4B, Englewood, NJ 07631, USA.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Content-Description: cc:Mail note part

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 16:57:15 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Sean Young <Sean.Young@DSW.COM>

Subject: Re: GS overview/Beat list

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Leon and all,

Leon, thanks for your story. Yeah, GS seems to bring a calmer approach

to communicating. Upon reading about General Semantics I was struck

with how much of our time in our lives is spent arguing over "what I

meant to say" or "you don't know what you're talking about" types of

statements.

I hope that on the list we could sometimes pause on the list and seek

"to understand" before "being understood". Stating considerations as

opposed to declaring a position. Sharing ideas as opposed to hurling

opinions back and forth. I look at it like this: Opinions are easy,

anyone can have one, you don't need to work for an opinion. Whereas

ideas have to be thought about, they are always considerations and

subject to evolution. And opposing views can help to sculpt a more

refined idea. And the realization that we are all on the same path on

the Beat list, we may be at different points on the path but it is the

same path.

Peace

Sean D. Young

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-MSMail-Priority: Normal

X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 16:01:55 -0800

Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Sherri <love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

someone wrote:

>I was referring to the heightened sense of awareness one gains regarding

>language when one is multi-lingual.

i would go further and say that adding even one language be it spoken or

symbolic, eg., music, math, etc., expands the structures within which one

thinks. language is built by a culture's particular experience and thought

patterns. hence the fact that some languages are extremely expressive about

certain ideas, feelings, etc., while some languages have very few words for

the same things. multilingualism at its best allows much deeper

understanding of cultures, psyches, the world around us and ourselves

because it broadens our ability to conceptualize and pay attention to things

which, in our native cultures, may not be considered much, if at all.

however, the multilinguist must be open enough to pay attention to and

accept these diversities, or the "awareness" may only be: "people are

different in other parts of the world, and they don't have a clue".

ciao, sherri

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:14:54 -0500

Reply-To: "eastwind@erols.com"@erols.com

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "D. Patrick Hornberger" <"eastwind@erols.com"@EROLS.COM>

Organization: EASTWIND PUBLISHING

Subject: Re: Beats and the Lost Generation

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Maggie Gerrity wrote:

> I'm preparing to start research for a paper I'm going to write

> comparing the Beats to the Lost Generation of the 1920's and 30's.

> I've seen a lot of similarities between the two groups: substance

> abuse, disillusionment with America, expatriatism (both literal and

> figurative).

> I plan to center my argument around a comparison of _On The Road_ to

> Hemingway's _The Sun Also Rises_ and "Howl" to T.S. Eliot's "The

> Wasteland."

> Just curious to hear if anyone else has seen any similarites between

> these two literary groups, probably the two greatest in the history of

> American Lit.

> Thanks,

> maggie g.

> ==

> "In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz

> _________________________________________________________

> DO YOU YAHOO!?

> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Great idea - Maggie

As a Publisher and (past Beat - Paris & NEw York) I think your idea may

be a reasonable book. Any interest in writing it?

I can think of a number of similarities to the two--mostly in the case

of their European experience...in particlar Paris.Both groups found

agreeable publishers in Europe for some of their early work.OTR and Sun

Also Rises share a genrational similarity - Ginsberg and JK looking for

Zen while Larry in Sun looks for similar mystic understanding. etc etc.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:27:13 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Zucchini4@AOL.COM

Subject: Beats and Post/Modernism

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

hey everybody. SO today, I took up (again) what is turning out to be my

eternal quest for the meaning of "post modernism"-- seems no matter how much I

read, it just gets more confusing....And then I decided to start w/ modernism,

which was worse. The article I was reading mentioned every type of literature

created in the first half of this century, and I had thought it was more of a

philosophy than a time period, even though the two are closely linked.

Anyway- one of the major characteristics of modernism, in fact, the first one

listed, is "stream of conciousness" writing. And of course, no mention of

Keroauc or any other Beat-type, when it always seemed to me that they had

played a big part in developing this as a technique.

So I'm basicly asking for any input/ideas about modernism or postmodernism in

general, and how the beats relate to either of these topics. I'm a little

lost, and I thought, who better to ask? :)

--Stephanie

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:41:15 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject: Re: WSB-Huncke connection

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

OKay, thanks. I didnt know this about Huncke...

On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:

> Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

> >

> > Did you know that Herbert Huncke gave WSB his very first shot? I found

> > that out today, from the Huncke Reader I told y'all about.

> === Huncke is not world reknowned for his honesty.....according to Ted

> Morgan, WSB was selling and using Junk when the two met for the first

> time. WSB offered to sell some Junk and some guns to Huncke and another

> guy, that's how they met. I don't know who's right and who's wrong, of

> course - I wasn't there, obviously - but I tend to believe WSB & Morgan

> over Huncke.

> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> Jeffrey Scott Holland - ky

> listening to distant sirens

> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 20:08:36 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject: Re: Brinkley's Kerouac bio

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

My question will be what kind of control will the estate exercise over

Brinkley's work. I myself will be very anxious to read his book when

published, but wonder if the gate keeper will allow everything out into the

open. I look forward to the day it is published, as I will read it as soon

as I can get a copy.

Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:

> Richard Wallner wrote:

> >

> > Both are good books...but the best Kerouac bio is yet to come. Neither

> > Nicosia or Charters had access to all of Kerouac's journals and papers.

> > Douglas Brinkley has been chosen by the Sampas family to write the

> > "authorized" biography, the first written with full access to the

> > papers. Im sure Brinkley willdo a terrific job, provided Sampas doesnt

> > try to edit it as he did the letters.

> === I wish Brinkley would find a way to surreptitiously photocopy

> everything and then leak it to the world.

> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ky

> Jeffrey

> Scott

> Holland

> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= still eatin' ice cream

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:32:39 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski cxonnection

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:

> What endeared WSB most to Korzybski's theory of general semantics was

> the way in which it showed the errors of Aristotelian thinking - the

> "either/or" simplistic way of thinking

> To Korzybski, a printed or spoken word was emphatically not the thing it

> represented,

Isn't there just an obvious contradiction here? K (and WSB following

him) insists that either/or logic is a basic error, but then in

practically the same breath, they themselves insist on an either/or

distinction: EITHER the word OR the thing.

A further irony is that this particular distinction is not even

generally valid: while the word "table" is not itself a table, the

word "word" *is* itself a word. So sometimes the word *can* be the

thing it represents.

It seems to me that either/or logic, must, at at least some level, be

correct. *At the very least* we need the following either/or: EITHER

some thing is different in *some* way from something else OR it is

not. If we couldn't tell whether or not anything was different from

anything else, reality as a whole would just melt down into one

all-purpose blob. Mathematics is unthinkable without either/or logic.

Computers too.

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:43:12 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Matthew Felix <felix@ENGR.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject: james baldwin

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

here is a long one:)

first off i have been unattentive to the list for the past few days

so i am sorry if i am stepping on the toes of other interesting

threads, but i am in a journey for knowledge and sometimes you got to

step up and try to start a thread of your own, ehh?

here we go i just put down james baldwin's Sonny's Blues and at the

moment am hit with soul searching thoughts about the fifties, bebop,

kerouac, racism, and that common quest to uncover every inner emotion that

we all hide from the world for the reason that we dont have anyone to

listen or have no clue how to express it.

anyway this is just pure rantings from a man deeply touched by this

story in need to discuss this with anyone who would like to. sorry if

this is coming out as jibberish but i am typing faster than normal.

what struck me about the story as being related to the Beats is

the fact that the story is about baldwin's younger brother coming from the

hopeless situation of blacks in harlem finding there place in a still

racially overcast society. his brother Sonny, dreamed of something better

a way of finding who he was because he had a sense that he was greater

than what his fate seemed to be headed toward. so he found his light

in music wishing to be like Charlie Parker (ehh? sound a little similar to

mr. kerouac?)

so Sonny sought refuge in the Navy (JK/merchant marines) then in small

apartments in the village. and finally fell into the addiction of most

jazz musicians of the time, heroin. anyway, baldwin's position is that he

is the older brother trying to understand his younger brothers search for

a greater understanding of his own life. and finally realizes that it is

his jazz which is where the human soul is able to escape.

told you it would be jibberish but trust me this is a great story and

if anyone has read it (please tell me you have) then backchannel me or

share it out in the open for the whole world to see.

oops! sorry sometimes i confuse the real world with this computer

world we are all in.

again please forgive the long rant but if i am going to post for the

first time then i might as well make it a splashing one....

"...no one really knows what i'm talking about, yeah that's right my

name is Yauch..."

matt

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:02:51 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: New Millenium Questions]]

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

charles plymell may return to the list soon.

Return-Path: <CVEditions@aol.com>

Received: from imo22.mail.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.150])

by mail.midusa.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA26337

for <race@midusa.net>; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:05:11 -0600 (CST)

From: CVEditions@aol.com

Received: from CVEditions@aol.com

by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id NJXJa10849

for <race@midusa.net>; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:50:12 -0500 (EST)

Message-ID: <254bb7d8.34d7bb46@aol.com>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:50:12 EST

To: race@midusa.net

Mime-Version: 1.0

Subject: Re: [Fwd: New Millenium Questions]

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 61

Sure, I'd like to come on soon.

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Sender: mapaul@pop.pipeline.com

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:28:58 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Brinkley's Kerouac bio

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

All existing biographies do not even remotely grasp the depth of Kerouac's

persona, genius, character, etc. The core to his insightful grasp of the

world and how his intelligence worked exists most likely in his notebooks

and journals which he kept up with throughout his life. Douglas Brinkley is

pursuing this biography because he wanted to, not because he was chosen by

the estate and is being paid to do it by them. It was a mutual agreement,

Brinkley wanted to do it, Sterling Lord told the Estate, and the Estate

agreed to let him do it. I don't think there is a concern over the estate

exercising control over what will and won't be admitted in the biography.

Brinkley stands on his own as a true scholar who will labor over this

venture with integrity, craft, and above all scholarship. Something gravely

lacking in current biographies in publication today. What we have here is

either a quick summary of the author's life (which is good if you want that

type of thing meaning Clark, Charters, and McNally), mock-critical

biographies which purport to be the "best" and most incisive (yet to be

proven because it does not stand the test of time: Memory Babe), or just

plain old money-making good-only-for-the-pictures type bio (Angel-Headed

Hipster et. al.). My own work which is over 500 pages I shelved in favor of

a diferent approach to "biography." With the onset of Some of the Dharma and

a forthcoming volume of letters, there is still much to be done in the way

of Kerouac biography. Those who have written about K. had to do so with the

material that was available to them. But none of them can ever be purported

as the "best" for each offers something different to the reader. Paul of The

Kerouac Quarterly.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

Henry David Thoreau

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Sender: vj@pop.primenet.com

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:46:16 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "V.J. Eaton" <vj@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject: Re: Brinkley's Kerouac bio

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>From TKQ

>All existing biographies do not even remotely grasp the depth of Kerouac's

>persona, genius, character, etc.

and on . . .

Claptrap from a youngster. Fortunately it was only an e-mail . . . and not

500 pages.

_____________________

More harm is done under guise of goodness than ever realized

by foul deed or evil doer. Nevertheless, I wish I was good.

--Herbert Huncke

V.J. Eaton

Tempe, AZ

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 20:51:31 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject: Re: the WSB-Korzybski cxonnection

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:

> > Isn't there just an obvious contradiction here? K (and WSB following

> > him) insists that either/or logic is a basic error, but then in

> > practically the same breath, they themselves insist on an either/or

> > distinction: EITHER the word OR the thing.

> === *Do* they insist on a word/thing dichotomy? I hadn't thought of it

> in that way. To say that "a thing and a word are not the same" is not

> the same statement as "If it's not a thing, it must be a word".

Well, that's not what I said or implied. If indeed it's true that K

says that the word is emphatically not the thing it refers to, then he

is insisting on a word/thing dichotomy--not one that is meant to be

exhaustive of reality as whole, of course, BUT IT IS STILL AN

EITHER/OR DISTINCTION. And of course if it's possible to identify

something as word at all and oppose it to a thing--well, this implies

the distinction that everything is EITHER a word OR not a word--a

distinction that IS valid for reality as a whole. As far as I can

tell, the whole conceptuality in play here is still solidly founded on

either/or logic.

> I assume

> K and WSB both would have said that K's principles of semantics also

> applies to itself, and that the idea can never be 100% perfectly stated,

> only approached.

Did K say that NO idea can be perfectly stated? If he did, he's wrong

about that, too: when we say "one", we have stated the idea of the

number one as perfectly as perfect can be. 1 is *exactly* 1 and

nothing else.

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Sender: jgrant@pop.globaldialog.com

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 20:52:56 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject: Re: Brinkley's Kerouac bio

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Bentz,

Think of what a biographer could do if (s)he could walk into the New York

Public Library and have access to everything JK left when he died. Then add

all of Nicosia's taped interviews to that stash, plus Charter's research

material.

Would that be a dream archive? Or would it be a dream archive?

j grant

>My question will be what kind of control will the estate exercise over

>Brinkley's work. I myself will be very anxious to read his book when

>published, but wonder if the gate keeper will allow everything out into the

>open. I look forward to the day it is published, as I will read it as soon

>as I can get a copy.

>Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:

>> Richard Wallner wrote:

>> >

>> > Both are good books...but the best Kerouac bio is yet to come. Neither

>> > Nicosia or Charters had access to all of Kerouac's journals and papers.

>> > Douglas Brinkley has been chosen by the Sampas family to write the

>> > "authorized" biography, the first written with full access to the

>> > papers. Im sure Brinkley willdo a terrific job, provided Sampas doesnt

>> > try to edit it as he did the letters.

>> === I wish Brinkley would find a way to surreptitiously photocopy

>> everything and then leak it to the world.

>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ky

>> Jeffrey

>> Scott

>> Holland

>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= still eatin' ice cream

>--

>Peace,

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

Details on-line at

http://www.bookzen.com

625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:49:07 -0600

Reply-To: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject: Re: One (was: the WSB-Korzybski connection)

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:

> > Did K say that NO idea can be perfectly stated? If he did, he's wrong

> > about that, too: when we say "one", we have stated the idea of the

> > number one as perfectly as perfect can be. 1 is *exactly* 1 and

> > nothing else.

> === oh, come on! ....you can't possibly be serious.

> what IS "one"? what IS the idea of the number one? how do you know?

> prove it. Don't point to a book because I'll ask, how do your sources

> know? can they prove it? how? Is one the first number? Or is it zero? I

> thought integers were numbers, what about negative integers? How can

> there be ANY first number with negative integers? When we say "one",

> might we be referring not to the number so much as a person (i.e. "JSH

> is the cute one" or "one might ask oneself")? The American Heritage

> dictionary gives seven different distinct meanings for "one", and simply

> saying "one" most assuredly does NOT state the idea perfectly. It only

> seems like it if you ALREADY KNOW the idea of one. Assuming the listener

> even speaks English. Does "Ein" have the same meaning as "One"? Does not

> any word have different shades of personal meanings to each person? And

> is it really the loneliest number that we'll ever do?

If you really don't know what the number 1 is, I don't know what else

I can say to you. OF COURSE the pattern of dots "one" can have any

possible meaning, if you so choose. But what it refers to, when it's

used to refer to the number 1, a pure singular unity, then it most

certainly does express it perfectly. When you know what 1 is, there's

absolutely nothing more to be known about it *itself*. Whether it's

the "first number" is a totally extrinsic question. The number 1 does

not exist inside my, or anyone else's, head. OF COURSE it can can have

all sorts of subjective connotations, but those sorts of things have

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with what it itself is.

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Sent-Mail: off

X-Expiredinmiddle: true

X-Sender-Ip: 149.151.190.53

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:03:51 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Albert Min <deadbaby@MAILEXCITE.COM>

Organization: MailExcite (http://www.mailexcite.com)

Subject: Re: Brinkley's Kerouac bio

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>>At 07:46 PM 2/3/98 -0700, you wrote:

>>>>From TKQ

>>>>All existing biographies do not even remotely grasp the depth of Kerouac's

>>>>persona, genius, character, etc.

>>>

>>>and on . . .

>>>

>>>Claptrap from a youngster. Fortunately it was only an e-mail . . . and not

>>>500 pages.

>>>

>>I can prove what I say because I have researched 500 pages worth of material

>>( not counting what was discarded). What is the source of your "claptrap"?

>>Because you think me a youngster, that may be, it may not be, that stement

>>of yours is irellevant, but what does the views of a "youngster" have to do

>>with recognizing K. as a genius? My statements are to the effect that for

>>the most part, biographies up to now have remained largely adulatory in

>>their tone, but not mature in taking K. as a serious writer, architect of

>>new style of consciousness-description, but also hugely capable of character

>>flaws like everybody else. What biography can you show me that is accurately

>>documented with solid proof on every page?

>> Your dismissal is largely condescending in nature and biased in attitude.

>>I can make an honest assessment because I researched my work and I have the

>>background for it. What is yours? Paul...

>>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>> Henry David Thoreau

>He's commenting on the content of your post, not your age.

>j grant

> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

> Details on-line at

> http://www.bookzen.com

> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97

Then what was the purpose of mentioning age at all? what is the purpose of

calling

his post "claptrap"? If you're going to criticize the content then explain what

you thought was wrong with it. I think Eaton's terse comment was highly

unnecessary.

Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere!

http://www.mailexcite.com

>From CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU!owner-beat-l Fri Feb 6 09:34:25 1998

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE by gpnet.it with esmtp using sendmail

(Smail3.2.0.101 #2) id m0xzxPj-001I5mC; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 06:30:23 +0100 (MET)

Received: from segate.sunet.se (192.36.125.16) by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <14.D5CBFEF9@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 6:30:23 +0100

Received: from CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (LISTSERV release 1.8c) with

NJE id 0629 for BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 00:30:29 -0500

Received: from CUNYVM (NJE origin SMTP5@CUNYVM) by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (LMail

V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 1891; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 00:01:44 -0500

Received: from UPIMSSMTPSYS04 by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R4) with TCP;

Wed, 04 Feb 98 00:01:43 EST

Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR04 - 207.68.143.160 by email.msn.com with Microsoft

SMTPSVC; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:01:17 -0800

Received: from default - 153.34.232.126 by email.msn.com with Microsoft

SMTPSVC; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:01:11 -0800

X-Priority: 3

X-MSMail-Priority: Normal

X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3

X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3

Message-ID: <0643b1101050428UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 20:58:11 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject: LONG: Corso on Kerouac part #1

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

ELEGAIC FEELINGS AMERICAN

(for the dear memory of Jack Kerouac)

How inseparable you and the Maerica you saw yet was

never to see +ADs- you and America, like the

tree and teh ground, are one the same+ADs- yet how

like a palm tree in the state of Oregon... dead

ere it blossomed, like a snow polar loping the

Miami --

How so that which you were or hoped to be, and the

America not, the America you saw yet could

not see

So like yet unlike the ground from which you stemmed+ADs-

you stood upon America like a rootless

flat-bottomed tree+ADs- to the squirrel there was no

divorcement in its hop of ground to its climb of

tree... until it saw no acorn fall, then it knew

there was no marriage between the two+ADs- how

fruitless, how useless, the sad unnaturalness

of nature+ADs- no wonder the dawn ceased being

a joy... for what good the earth and sun when

the tree in between is good for nothing... the

inseparable trinity, once dissevered, becomes a

cold fruitless meaningless thrice-marked

deathlie in its awful amputation... O butcher

the pork-chop is not the pig -- the American

alien in America is a bitter truncationa+ADs- and even

this elegy dear Jack. shall have a butchered

tree, a tree beaten to a pulp, upon which it'll be

contained -- no wonder no good news can be

written on such bad news --

How alien the natural home, aye, aye, how dies the tree

when the ground is foreign, cold, unfree -- The

winds know not to blow the seed of the

Redwood where none before had stood+ADs- no palm is

blown to Oregon, how wise the wind -- Wise

too the senders of the prophet... knowing the

fertility of the designated spot where suchmeant

prophecy be announced and answerable -- the

sower of wheat does no sow in teh fields of

cane+ADs- for the sender of the voice did also send the ear.

And were little Liechtenstein, and not

America, the designation.... surely then we'd

the tongues of Liechtenstein --

Was not so much our finding America as it was America

finding its voice in us+ADs- many spoke to America

as though America by land-right was theirs by

law-right legistlatively acquired by materialistic

coups of wealth and inheritance+ADs- like the citizen

of society believes himself the owner of society,

and what he makes of himself he makes of

America and thus when he speaks of America

he speaks of himself, and quite often, such a he

is duly elected to represent what he represents...

an infernal ego of America

Thus many a patriot speaks lovingly of himself when he

speaks of America, and not to appreciate him is

no to appreciate America, and vice versa

The tongue of truth is the true tongue of America, and it

could not be in the +ACI-Daily Heralds+ACI- since

the voice therein was a controlled voice.

wickedly opinionated, and directed at gullible

No wonder we found ourselves rootless... for we've become

the very roots themselves -- the lie can never

take root and there grow under a truth of sun

and therefrom ber the fruit of truth

Alas, Jack, seems I cannot requiem the without

requieming America, and that's one requiem

I shall not presume, for as long as I live there'll

be no requiems for me

For though the tree dies the tree id born anew, only until

the tree dies forever and never a tree born

anew... shall the ground die too

Yours the eyes that saw, the heart that felt, the voice that

sang and cried+ADs- and as long as America shall

live, though ye old Kerouac body hath died,

yet shall you live... for indeed ours was a time

of prophecy wiithout death as a consequence...

for indeed after us came assassins,

and who'll doubt thy last words, +ACI-After me...

the deluge+ACI-

Ah, but were it a matter of season I'd not doubt the return

of the tree, for what good the ground upon

which we stand itself unable to stand -- aye the

tree will seasonal time fall, for it be nature's

wont, that's why the ground, the down, the slow

yet sure decompostion, until the very tree

becomes the very ground where once it stood+ADs-

yet falls the ground... ah then what?

unanswerable this be unto nature, for there is

no ground whereon to fall and land, no down,

no up even, directionless. and into what, if what,

compostion goeth its decomposition?

We came to announce the human spirit in the name of

beauty and truth+ADs- now this spirit cries out in

nature's sake the horrendous imbalance of all

things natural... elusive nature caught+ACE- like a

bird in hand, harnessed and engineered in the

unevolutional ways of experimetn and technique

Yes though the tree has taken root in the ground the ground

is upturned and in this forced vomitage is spewn

the fire miasma of fossilific trees of death the

million-yeared pirch and grease of a dinosauric

age dead and gone how all brought to surface

again and made to raom the sky we breathe in

stampedes of pollution

What hope for the America so embodied in thee, O friend,

when the very same alcohol that disembodied

your brother redman of his America

disembodied ye -- A plot to grab their land, we

know, yet what plot to grab the ungrabbable

land of one's spirit? Thy visionary America were

impossible to unvision -- for when the shades of

the windows of the spirit are brought down, that

which was seen yet remains... the eyes of the

spirit yet see

Aye the America so embodied in thee, so definitely rooted

therefrom, is the living embodiment of all

humanity, young and free

And though the great redemptive tree blooms, not yet full,

not yet entirely sure, there be the darksters, sad

sad and old, would like to have it fall+ADs- they hack

and shop and saw away... that nothing full

and young and free for sure be left to stand at

all

Verily were such a tree as youth be... were such be made

to fall, and never rise again, then shall

the ground fall, and the deluge come and wash

it asunder, wholly all and forever, like a wind

out of nowhere into nowhere

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Sender: mapaul@pop.pipeline.com

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 23:07:28 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Brinkley's Kerouac bio

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

At 07:46 PM 2/3/98 -0700, you wrote:

>>From TKQ

>>All existing biographies do not even remotely grasp the depth of Kerouac's

>>persona, genius, character, etc.

>and on . . .

>Claptrap from a youngster. Fortunately it was only an e-mail . . . and not

>500 pages.

I can prove what I say because I have researched 500 pages worth of material

( not counting what was discarded). What is the source of your "claptrap"?

Because you think me a youngster, that may be, it may not be, that stement

of yours is irellevant, but what does the views of a "youngster" have to do

with recognizing K. as a genius? My statements are to the effect that for

the most part, biographies up to now have remained largely adulatory in

their tone, but not mature in taking K. as a serious writer, architect of

new style of consciousness-description, but also hugely capable of character

flaws like everybody else. What biography can you show me that is accurately

documented with solid proof on every page?

Your dismissal is largely condescending in nature and biased in attitude.

I can make an honest assessment because I researched my work and I have the

background for it. What is yours? Paul...

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

Henry David Thoreau

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Sender: zman1956@postoffice.bellatlantic.net

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 23:09:24 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Zarra <zman1956@BELLATLANTIC.NET>

Subject: Re: Visions of Gerard

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Diane,

Nice post on VISIONS OF GERARD.

<html>

John J Zarra Jr</html>

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-Sender: jgrant@pop.globaldialog.com

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 22:24:52 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject: Re: Brinkley's Kerouac bio

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>At 07:46 PM 2/3/98 -0700, you wrote:

>>>From TKQ

>>>All existing biographies do not even remotely grasp the depth of Kerouac's

>>>persona, genius, character, etc.

>>and on . . .

>>Claptrap from a youngster. Fortunately it was only an e-mail . . . and not

>>500 pages.

>I can prove what I say because I have researched 500 pages worth of material

>( not counting what was discarded). What is the source of your "claptrap"?

>Because you think me a youngster, that may be, it may not be, that stement

>of yours is irellevant, but what does the views of a "youngster" have to do

>with recognizing K. as a genius? My statements are to the effect that for

>the most part, biographies up to now have remained largely adulatory in

>their tone, but not mature in taking K. as a serious writer, architect of

>new style of consciousness-description, but also hugely capable of character

>flaws like everybody else. What biography can you show me that is accurately

>documented with solid proof on every page?

> Your dismissal is largely condescending in nature and biased in attitude.

>I can make an honest assessment because I researched my work and I have the

>background for it. What is yours? Paul...

>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

> Henry David Thoreau

He's commenting on the content of your post, not your age.

j grant

HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

Details on-line at

http://www.bookzen.com

625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

X-MSMail-Priority: Normal

X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 20:58:11 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: From CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU!owner-beat-l Wed Feb 4 07:16:56 1998

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 02:45:11 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject: Claptrap from an oldster

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

V.J. Eaton wrote:

> Claptrap from a youngster.

=== what makes people like this join a Beat Generation list? What do

they want? What are they after? What purpose do they imagine that

statements like this one serve? Crazy, Man, Crazy. If Kerouac himself

posted to this list he'd be ridiculed and picked apart and insulted.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

J.Scott Holland, ky ky ky

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 23:39:48 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject: Re: One (was: the WSB-Korzybski connection)

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe."--Magritte

Cordially,

Mike Skau

On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:

> Jeff Taylor wrote: